How would you feel about a rebuild if the Angels fail to make the playoffs in 2022?

[Docwaukee]

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

They have rebuilt, they’re in a rebuild.  Call it whatever you want because you won’t agree with me but this has been a rebuild. 

I would sorta disagree.  If you're rebuilding, you don't worry about trading Cobb or Rasiel.  Or anyone.  You break it down and don't let perception get in the way.  I'm not saying that's what they should have done, but they haven't.  

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Docwaukee said:

I would sorta disagree.  If you're rebuilding, you don't worry about trading Cobb or Rasiel.  Or anyone.  You break it down and don't let perception get in the way.  I'm not saying that's what they should have done, but they haven't.  

I agree on Iglesias but Cobb was hurt or would have been traded. 

[TroutField]

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

They have rebuilt, they’re in a rebuild.  Call it whatever you want because you won’t agree with me but this has been a rebuild. 

The problem is we have a small rebuild every year. We try again with some SP reclamation projects and hope for the best. (This year it actually seems to have paid off) 

But we don’t have any depth to sustain any types of injury or bad performances, the outfield is another prime example. There’s some sort of huge breakdown in the player development portion of the minor leagues, it shouldn’t have been this hard to find someone to play the OF at a decent level when Adell struggled and Ward went down. Or if Jack Mayfield is your replacement for Rendon, you’re in trouble.
 

I wont pretend I know what the solution is, 4 straight GMs and now on the 3rd Manager since Scioscia left and these guys can’t seem to figure it out either 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, TroutField said:

The problem is we have a small rebuild every year. We try again with some SP reclamation projects and hope for the best. (This year it actually seems to have paid off) 

But we don’t have any depth to sustain any types of injury or bad performances, the outfield is another prime example. There’s some sort of huge breakdown in the player development portion of the minor leagues, it shouldn’t have been this hard to find someone to play the OF at a decent level when Adell struggled and Ward went down. Or if Jack Mayfield is your replacement for Rendon, you’re in trouble.
 

I wont pretend I know what the solution is, 4 straight GMs and now on the 3rd Manager since Scioscia left and these guys can’t seem to figure it out either 

Results aren’t the deciding factor of whether or not they are rebuilding. If so then the Pirates aren’t rebuilding. 

[UndertheHalo]

I don’t get how people can talk about a rebuild.  What are you talking about ? They’ve struggled to build around Mike Trout and Ohtani.  What makes you think they can build without them.  Do you want to see the playoffs in the next decade ? Good fucking luck without Trout. 

[Stradling]

Just now, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t get how people can talk about a rebuild.  What are you talking about ? They’ve struggled to build around Mike Trout and Ohtani.  What makes you think they can build without them.  Do you want to see the playoffs in the next decade ? Good fucking luck without Trout. 

This will result in the most predictable response ever, so enjoy everyone. 

[Docwaukee]

Just now, Stradling said:

I agree on Iglesias but Cobb was hurt or would have been traded. 

point still stands.  they kept Rasiel in the hopes of re signing him?  right?  And if they've been rebuilding, then they're doing it wrong.  you don't rebuild by signing half assed guys that you hope catch lighting.  You spend 20m on a really good player for a 1yr pillow and trade them at the deadline.  And you move everything that isn't nailed down which you feel isn't a cornerstone.  And you don't spend 170-190m during a traditional rebuild.   Maybe that's part of the problem.  Organizational confusion.  Let's build a half assed team around two or three really good players and ignore everything else. 

Sorry.  but we haven't been rebuilding.  and we haven't even been retooling.  tooling.  I think we've just been tooling.  

[UndertheHalo]

14 minutes ago, Stradling said:

This will result in the most predictable response ever, so enjoy everyone. 

I am right and therefore indifferent to opposing idiocy. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by UndertheHalo

[Stradling]

Yea I disagree Doc sorry. We went 5+ years without signing a player with draft pick attachment. We haven’t traded a significant prospect since Newcomb and that was 7 years ago.  Last year we added a who’s who of front office personnel.  

[Lou]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

Im right and therefore indifferent to opposing idiocy. 

*I'm

[UndertheHalo]

8 minutes ago, Lou said:

*I'm

[Docwaukee]

and btw, if this has been a rebuild, then they've done an absolute shit job.  

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yea I disagree Doc sorry. We went 5+ years without signing a player with draft pick attachment. We haven’t traded a significant prospect since Newcomb and that was 7 years ago.  Last year we added a who’s who of front office personnel.  

no worries  and no apologies necessary.  But you don't trade for Dillon Bundy if you're rebuilding.  Sorry if that's not significant enough for you.  You don't trade anything for Escobar or Maybin or Upton or Iglesias or Iglesias, And most of all you don't sign Rendon to the contract he signed.  We reupped Calhoun.  And then he walked.  We maxed out the budget on a yearly to and made move to give the team a shot at making the playoffs.  I'm not saying I totally disagree with what that was but it wasn't a rebuild.  Did they recognize that the farm system was a shit show of epic proportion and that they needed to attend to that?  Yah.  Any moron could see what scorched earth Jerry left.  Does that make how they've acted in the last several years a 'rebuild'?  yah.  not even close.  

[UndertheHalo]

I think the Angels should have tried to sign Chris Taylor and this move would have helped them a lot. 

[eligrba]

Maybe paying someone with a record of building a winning franchise instead of another worthless and expense relief pitcher might help.

[Taylor]

1 hour ago, eligrba said:

Maybe paying someone with a record of building a winning franchise instead of another worthless and expense relief pitcher might help.

Jeter?

[Angels 1961]

8 hours ago, failos said:

Upton is off the books, they have money to find some solid guys. We also have a promising group of young players.

Name solid guys you would go after. Name promising young players who will be ready in 2023. Solid players do not want to come to losing team. Has this planned worked in last 7 years?

[Angels 1961]

First if you trade Trout you would sit down with him and ask where he might like to go. He has a no trade deal and to trade him few teams have assets to take on that contract. Angels would have to take on some money to get any decent players or prospects. This would be a discussion you have with him in off season. Trout his value goes down every year now. If traded east coast Philly might fit or Boston. West coast Trout on San Diego added to that lineup could be a fit. First you play out this season but if this is the 7th straight losing season things need to change. Dodgers have the money and players to trade but I agree very hard for Artie to trade with Dodgers.

[Angels 1961]

I totally agree about Ohtani you cannot go into next season with him unsigned. He has said he wants to play on a winner so if unsigned you shop him. If his contract would be over 40 mill a year do halos invest that kind of money with so many needs? This off season 50% of halos rotation will need to be replaced.

[Inside Pitch]

If you were singing Perry's praises after he decided to spend heavily on the pen, and now you're talking rebuild consider your previous positions/thought processes and tread carefully.

Also, some of you are forgetting that bullpen volatility works both ways.  

[Angels 1961]

10 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

I think the Angels should have tried to sign Chris Taylor and this move would have helped them a lot. 

Players would want to come to Angels. Chris Taylor was going back to Dodgers because they win year after yearand will match most offers

[Angels 1961]

I'm for a reboot I keep Ward, Walsh and Rendon stays because no team is adding that contract. If Trout wants to stay after a 7th losing season that would be up to him. Those would be private conversations with ownership and Trout. Thor and Lorenzen will be FA after this year and if Ohtani and halos to not come to an agreement halos will need 3 to 4 new starters this off season. Some starters can come from within but will need to develop. Sandoval, Detmers and need 4 more for 2023. Same story year after year.

[AngelsFaninGA]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

If you were singing Perry's praises after he decided to spend heavily on the pen, and now you're talking rebuild consider your previous positions/thought processes and tread carefully.

Also, some of you are forgetting that bullpen volatility works both ways.  

I can't wait until 2035 when all of this regresses toward the mean and we enter the Golden Age of Angels Relief Pitching with an entire bullpen made up of Josh Haders

[DMVol]

12 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

I'm for a reboot I keep Ward, Walsh and Rendon stays because no team is adding that contract. If Trout wants to stay after a 7th losing season that would be up to him. Those would be private conversations with ownership and Trout. Thor and Lorenzen will be FA after this year and if Ohtani and halos to not come to an agreement halos will need 3 to 4 new starters this off season. Some starters can come from within but will need to develop. Sandoval, Detmers and need 4 more for 2023. Same story year after year.

To move Trout, we would have to eat a significant portion of his deal....while that might free up some money, I don't think it is realistic to talk about moving Trout or Rendon....Ohtani is a different question....he would net a huge return and I'd rather get something than let him walk....but that decision doesn't have to be made now....see where the rest of the season goes and how amenable he is to a new deal....

[AngelsFanSince86]

Their problem is commitment.  If they want to win with Trout and Ohtani then they needed to sign a legit SS, another OFer, and another SP.  The Angels have depth.  The problem is they've made that depth their starters.  Adell, Duffy, Velasquez, Ward, and Marsh should have all started this season as depth.  Instead they were all battling for starting positions.  

On the flip side I definitely don't want them to trade Trout, but as long as he and Ohtani are on this team they will never be bad enough to get a top draft pick.  That is why the Angels are forever in mediocrity.  Won't go all in and try to win and won't go all in and rebuild.  

[Angelsjunky]

We've kind of gone over this many times over the last few years, but that's just the nature of this franchise.

I think the time to rebuild is, well, five years past. Or ten, even. Let me recap, with some key windows:

2010-12: In 2010, the Angels have their first bad year since 2003, after losing a bunch of key players of their 2009 squad. They bounce back somewhat in 2011 (86 wins), but not enough. So Arte empowers Dipoto to make some Big Splashes, signing Pujols and Wilson, and extending Weaver.

One could argue that this is when they should have undergone on a rebuild, but Arte was fresh off the 2004-09 Golden Age and desperately wanted the Angels to be in a class with the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, and Cardinals, and wouldn't accept that they just weren't there. So he made matters worse.

2016-17: Consider that from 2011-15, the Angels won 85 or more games four out of five seasons. They reached the postseason in 2014 and still won 85 games in 2015, finishing 3 games behind. After 2015, they had the best player in the game, Pujols was still decent, and a young pitching staff with some upside. But starting in 2015, the rotation was hit hard by injuries: every single young starter (Richards, Shoemaker, Skaggs, Heaney, Tropeano, Meyer) missed significant time, some a year or more. Furthermore, Jered Weaver's arm turned to rubber, and Pujols went from decent in 2016 to terrible in 2017.

This is another point where a rebuild would have been a good idea, but at this point they had the looming prospect of Trout's free agency, and they didn't want to tell the 25-year old that the next few years would be rough.

On the other hand, they didn't fully commit to spending big, perhaps hobbled by the Pujols and, for a time, Hamilton contracts ("But its not our money" died around here). But they kind of tried, trading for Andrelton Simmons in 2016, and Justin Upton in 2017. But this was the "clean peanut"/scrap-heap era of Eppler's pitching staffs.

But they still only had Trout signed through 2020 and when they grabbed Shohei Ohtani, 2018 was another year of trying to get that extra bit of juice to turn an 80-win team to a 90-win team. It didn't work, of course, and they suffered through their worst season (72-90) since the 90s, sending Sciosci out to pasture.

But somehow Eppler and Arte gotTrout to sign a 12-year contract (maybe $400 million had something to do with it) - perhaps partially because they were able to convince him that they were going to be a contender soon. And, of course, they made a huge splash with Rendon.

In fact, Rendon is very significant because he basically signaled that the Angels weren't (and aren't) going to rebuild anytime soon. I mean, if we suffer through another few mediocre seasons, they can rebuild in his last two years or so (2025ish). But they certainly won't this offseason, with the hopes of extending Ohtani beyond 2023.

Anyhow, both 2020 and '21 began with promise - and the teams were at least fairly good on paper. But 2020 saw some hugely bad performances from key players, and 2021 saw devastating injuries to Trout and Rendon, and a collapse in Fletcher's play.

2021 also signaled a concern that we see playing out this year: Minasian doesn't seem to be any better at assembling a bullpen than Eppler was; he's just spending more money for similar results. While maybe it is too early to say this definitively, it does seem that Cishek/Claudio/Watson = Loup/Tepera/Bradley; it is just that the latter trio is a lot more expensive.

Bottom line: I don't think the Angels are rebuilding any time soon, and partially because the core is quite talented. The biggest problems in 2022 are similar to the biggest problems in 2021: No depth beyond the stars, and bullpen woes. But the rotation is better, and we still have the promise of seeing what a healthy quartet of Trout-Ohtani-Rendon-Ward can do, combined with the solid complementary starters of Walsh-Stassi-Marsh.

If those guys can stay healthy, the rotation hold steady, and the bullpen improve, then I still think this is a team that can win 90+ games and grab a wildcard spot. I think we'll know by the ASB which way the team is trending.

Now if they're below .500 at the ASB, then we might see a fire-sale - but that's not the same as a rebuild. It is a retooling for next year. 

But even so, it is a solid core of average to star caliber position players, a handful of solid youngish pitchers, and a bunch of up-and-coming pitchers in the minors.

The core task for the Angels this year, and going forward, is depth, depth, depth. They should have listened to @Docwaukee

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Angelsjunky