The overall picture

[floplag]

59 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Agreed. I mean they weren't going to continue on that pace ALL year. They're gonna have stretches like this, but then they'll get hot again.

Baseball is a really tough sport for impatient and shortsighted people to follow. Hey, I'm one of them. 

But I store it in the back of my mind that the season is long and there's gonna be plenty of heartbreak. I still think this is a good team. 

Oh it absolutely is a good team, a couple of gut punch losses and a poor start dont change that.  Im not worried about Iglesias long term, and im not overly bothered by Thors poor start, those things happen.   I have worries, but  those arent part of that discussion. 
 

[ten ocho recon scout]

5 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

Yep and I think he’s warming up.  He’s on a positive trajectory imo. 

Yeah, so far hes been a giant dud. But theres also covid and injury mixed in. So thr microscope is on.

This year hes started slow, but lately has been looking good. Ill hold judgment for a bit. He could end up being a huge boost for us still.

[tdawg87]

39 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Yeah, so far hes been a giant dud. But theres also covid and injury mixed in. So thr microscope is on.

This year hes started slow, but lately has been looking good. Ill hold judgment for a bit. He could end up being a huge boost for us still.

I'm far from his biggest advocate, but we have to remember offense is down significantly league wide. His .746 OPS would normally be around 100-105, but this year it's 119, which is prime Upton range. Add in his great defense and he's easily a 3+ WAR player this year.

Obviously not what we paid for, but it's still positive. He doesn't seem to have lost his plate discipline like our favorite punching bag did so even if he's struggling, he's still getting on base at a solid clip.

I'm confident he'll have a solid year. 

[floplag]

10 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I'm far from his biggest advocate, but we have to remember offense is down significantly league wide. His .746 OPS would normally be around 100-105, but this year it's 119, which is prime Upton range. Add in his great defense and he's easily a 3+ WAR player this year.

Obviously not what we paid for, but it's still positive. He doesn't seem to have lost his plate discipline like our favorite punching bag did so even if he's struggling, he's still getting on base at a solid clip.

I'm confident he'll have a solid year. 

They have said many times that though hes healthy hes still not 100% on his lower body strength so, look for him to keep it going.  Im not to worried there near as much as i am other spots.

[Halo in Chicago]

All good points and I assume almost all of us would have taken this record they 40. It’s tough getting swept, especially by Texas and when we had our chances. 
 

I’m a little frustrated in that I’d like to see Ohtani get to at least double digit wins so wasting these starts of his frustrates me. 

[3pitchwalk]

i like these kind of perspective/cope posts. good teams get swept by bad teams, they have weeks where they look absolutely awful, this kinda shit happens during a season. the only thing i disagree with is that texas might be involved in a playoff race but i do hate them and you guys did bring the 6-14 thing into the universe so who knows.

the only thing i'm worried about is the team's k rate. i know it's worked out so far and the team is like top5 in most offensive categories but they can't keep going on making opposing starters in every other game look like degrom. they're denying the opposing team even the opportunity to fuck up. also they gotta work on their baserunning.

[drpiranha]

I think the offense and defense is fine for the most part. I think the starters are doing well. I think they need a little longer leash. Maddon seems to think all the members of his bullpen are equal and doesn't shy away from using them in pressure situations. I don't like Mayers being brought into late inning situation unless the game is out of hand (either way). I think Loup and Tepera need to  change places with Loup used in the 8th.

I'm concerned about Iglesias. I seem to recall him hitting 97-98 with his fastball and sinker last year. He is only hitting 95 this year.

[REDneck]

9 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

Yep and I think he’s warming up.  He’s on a positive trajectory imo. 

Trajectory is trending as slow as molasses,  but yes it's headed in the right direction.

Vintage Rendon is huge for this team!

[Docwaukee]

8 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

It's a mixed bag for sure but I think some are overstating his pull happy tendencies.   I think MLB as a whole has adopted the whole XX number of times through the lineup BS.  With as much info as they have available these days i'd sort of hope teams could find a way to measure the quality of contact for hitters in real time to help a team decide whether the SP is seeing his stuff get torched more as the game goes on .vs automatically going to the pen after seeing the lineup a couple times.

or what pitches the pitcher exposed the batter to in previous at bats.  It's clear that third time through the order is less effective for pitchers but let's find out why and not just assume you have to remove the guy who grounded out on a couple first pitch fastballs the first two times.  

[Puget Sound Angel]

This series was a flashback to the last 10 years.

[Docwaukee]

7 hours ago, floplag said:

Im kind of glad it happened if im being honest.  Weve had a lot go right, and i think we were starting confuse luck with brains.  A little kick in the nether to remind us we still have some issues to resolve is a good thing.
 

Not sure I'm ever glad about them losing and I think they know their holes or where there's smoke and mirrors.  If I can go to a website and see that their pen is crap so far then they can do the same.  But it kinda doesn't matter right now.  Even a kick in the nuts doesn't make them better.  Because there's perhaps only minimal ways to improve at this point.  Bring up someone from the minors to replace such and such or so and so in the pen or at 2b?  Maybe that helps a little.  The problems they started with are pretty much going to be the same until at least July and even then it's gonna take some scratch to improve.  Which is why I'm still kinda annoyed that they could be better right now.  More lineup and bench depth in particular.  

wRC+ for the 6 through 9 spots for the team

6th spot - 47.  ranked 29th
7th - 74.  ranked 20th
8th - 87.  ranked 16th
9th - 71.  ranked 20th

reminding everyone that these are rankings among even the worst team which means that, even as one of the better teams, we still rank toward the bottom third at 3 of the 4 spots where the bottom of the order for bad teams is probably really really bad.   I can accept a lack of offense from an elite defensive player.  We have one where his defense likely makes up for the lack of offense.  I could even live with being on the low end or middle for two spots.  

the other ranks

1st - 183.  1st
2nd - 159. 3rd
3rd - 140.  6th
4th - 143.  3rd
5th - 141.  5th.  

don't get me wrong.  I think our offense is really good.  good enough at the top of the order to mask the deficiencies at the bottom.  No doubt.  Good enough for a team with playoff aspirations.  

But is this a mystery?  Didn't anyone not expect this?  Is there someone in those bottom 6 spots underperforming?  Do we expect it to get better?  No, No, No, and No.  

there have been starts by the following

4th - mayfield (3), Duffy (2)
5th - Rojas (1), Mayfield (3), Duffy (4)
6th - Whitefield (1), Rojas (4), Mayfield (5), Duffy (2)
7th -  Wade (1), Rojas (1), Mayfield (4), Duffy (2)
8th - Wade (18), Duffy (1)
9th - Whitefield (1), Wade (6)

You'll notice I didn't include Adell, any of our catchers, Fletcher, or Rengifo on this list.  And yes, of course some of this is COVID related.  But that's still 1.5 players worth of starts who have already accumulated -0.9 WAR.  Does anyone think that's going to get better? 

And here's what really burns my ass.  They absolutely planned on giving Trout and Rendon about 20-30 games off during the year.  They absolutely knew that Fletcher was a disaster last year.  They absolutely knew that Adell and Marsh are essentially rookies for all intents and purposes. 

In recent years passed it didn't annoy me as much because the team just wasn't that good and we knew it.  This year you could they went out and made it better and left the job incomplete. 

We all realize that bullpens and starters don't need to be as good when you have a better lineup right?   There are acceptable reasons for an unbalance lineup.  Going into the season with question marks and ending up with 1/3rd of your lineup as replacement players is not one of them.  

I feel like a damn broken record at this point.  





 

[HeavenlyHalos]

15 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

Ya pulling Detmers at 60 pitches.  I don’t know about that.  I feel like that’s probably a GM office and staff game plan  more than Joe being big brained.  A lot of teams are doing it. 

Disagreed. I think that is all Maddon. This is who he is and why I was not in favor of hiring him in the first place. My close friend is a Cubs fan and I watched the same thing and heard the same complaints from him back then. That's not to say he doesn't have his strengths, I do think he gives younger players more opportunity to prove themselves compared to say Scioscia, which is a relative strength. I think he manages personalities very well and is a "player's coach" but his in-game decision making is questionable at best. He puts Mayers in a tie game despite the fact that he is struggled in high-stress situations for over a year and we have the next day off. His constant effing with the lineups has also always been his thing.

Lastly, I cannot get over the B squad lineup he put out there against Tampa with the next day off. That's the type of s**t that makes no sense to me whatsoever. Sure, it's May. We are also 1.5 games back. It's not unreasonable to believe we finish 1-3 games back. The cumulative effect of those decisions can cost us a division or playoff spot over the course of a season. We have seen the B squad lineup 3 times recently and have lost all 3 games. 

[HeavenlyHalos]

2 hours ago, Dochalo said:

Not sure I'm ever glad about them losing and I think they know their holes or where there's smoke and mirrors.  If I can go to a website and see that their pen is crap so far then they can do the same.  But it kinda doesn't matter right now.  Even a kick in the nuts doesn't make them better.  Because there's perhaps only minimal ways to improve at this point.  Bring up someone from the minors to replace such and such or so and so in the pen or at 2b?  Maybe that helps a little.  The problems they started with are pretty much going to be the same until at least July and even then it's gonna take some scratch to improve.  Which is why I'm still kinda annoyed that they could be better right now.  More lineup and bench depth in particular.  

wRC+ for the 6 through 9 spots for the team

6th spot - 47.  ranked 29th
7th - 74.  ranked 20th
8th - 87.  ranked 16th
9th - 71.  ranked 20th

reminding everyone that these are rankings among even the worst team which means that, even as one of the better teams, we still rank toward the bottom third at 3 of the 4 spots where the bottom of the order for bad teams is probably really really bad.   I can accept a lack of offense from an elite defensive player.  We have one where his defense likely makes up for the lack of offense.  I could even live with being on the low end or middle for two spots.  

the other ranks

1st - 183.  1st
2nd - 159. 3rd
3rd - 140.  6th
4th - 143.  3rd
5th - 141.  5th.  

don't get me wrong.  I think our offense is really good.  good enough at the top of the order to mask the deficiencies at the bottom.  No doubt.  Good enough for a team with playoff aspirations.  

But is this a mystery?  Didn't anyone not expect this?  Is there someone in those bottom 6 spots underperforming?  Do we expect it to get better?  No, No, No, and No.  

there have been starts by the following

4th - mayfield (3), Duffy (2)
5th - Rojas (1), Mayfield (3), Duffy (4)
6th - Whitefield (1), Rojas (4), Mayfield (5), Duffy (2)
7th -  Wade (1), Rojas (1), Mayfield (4), Duffy (2)
8th - Wade (18), Duffy (1)
9th - Whitefield (1), Wade (6)

You'll notice I didn't include Adell, any of our catchers, Fletcher, or Rengifo on this list.  And yes, of course some of this is COVID related.  But that's still 1.5 players worth of starts who have already accumulated -0.9 WAR.  Does anyone think that's going to get better? 

And here's what really burns my ass.  They absolutely planned on giving Trout and Rendon about 20-30 games off during the year.  They absolutely knew that Fletcher was a disaster last year.  They absolutely knew that Adell and Marsh are essentially rookies for all intents and purposes. 

In recent years passed it didn't annoy me as much because the team just wasn't that good and we knew it.  This year you could they went out and made it better and left the job incomplete. 

We all realize that bullpens and starters don't need to be as good when you have a better lineup right?   There are acceptable reasons for an unbalance lineup.  Going into the season with question marks and ending up with 1/3rd of your lineup as replacement players is not one of them.  

I feel like a damn broken record at this point.  





 

We went into the season hoping Fletcher would return to a decent hitter and somehow we'd find a suitable SS. We actually have the latter since his defense is that good but what we are trotting out at second is not going to cut it. On top of that, these weak hitting MIF bats are also starting in the corner OF spots far too often. This was a terrible plan from the start.

We are so freaking fortunate that Ward is playing like an MVP at the moment and that Marsh is having a solid first season. As doc said, the 6-9 is pretty bad on a consistent basis that we can only hope for one run typically from Stassi or, more recently, a Velazquez hit and to turn it over to Ward to maybe get an XBH with two outs.

[HeavenlyHalos]

PS - We will win the division this year. F**k the Astros

[floplag]

9 hours ago, Dochalo said:

Not sure I'm ever glad about them losing and I think they know their holes or where there's smoke and mirrors.  If I can go to a website and see that their pen is crap so far then they can do the same.  But it kinda doesn't matter right now.  Even a kick in the nuts doesn't make them better.  Because there's perhaps only minimal ways to improve at this point.  Bring up someone from the minors to replace such and such or so and so in the pen or at 2b?  Maybe that helps a little.  The problems they started with are pretty much going to be the same until at least July and even then it's gonna take some scratch to improve.  Which is why I'm still kinda annoyed that they could be better right now.  More lineup and bench depth in particular.  

wRC+ for the 6 through 9 spots for the team

6th spot - 47.  ranked 29th
7th - 74.  ranked 20th
8th - 87.  ranked 16th
9th - 71.  ranked 20th

reminding everyone that these are rankings among even the worst team which means that, even as one of the better teams, we still rank toward the bottom third at 3 of the 4 spots where the bottom of the order for bad teams is probably really really bad.   I can accept a lack of offense from an elite defensive player.  We have one where his defense likely makes up for the lack of offense.  I could even live with being on the low end or middle for two spots.  

the other ranks

1st - 183.  1st
2nd - 159. 3rd
3rd - 140.  6th
4th - 143.  3rd
5th - 141.  5th.  

don't get me wrong.  I think our offense is really good.  good enough at the top of the order to mask the deficiencies at the bottom.  No doubt.  Good enough for a team with playoff aspirations.  

But is this a mystery?  Didn't anyone not expect this?  Is there someone in those bottom 6 spots underperforming?  Do we expect it to get better?  No, No, No, and No.  

there have been starts by the following

4th - mayfield (3), Duffy (2)
5th - Rojas (1), Mayfield (3), Duffy (4)
6th - Whitefield (1), Rojas (4), Mayfield (5), Duffy (2)
7th -  Wade (1), Rojas (1), Mayfield (4), Duffy (2)
8th - Wade (18), Duffy (1)
9th - Whitefield (1), Wade (6)

You'll notice I didn't include Adell, any of our catchers, Fletcher, or Rengifo on this list.  And yes, of course some of this is COVID related.  But that's still 1.5 players worth of starts who have already accumulated -0.9 WAR.  Does anyone think that's going to get better? 

And here's what really burns my ass.  They absolutely planned on giving Trout and Rendon about 20-30 games off during the year.  They absolutely knew that Fletcher was a disaster last year.  They absolutely knew that Adell and Marsh are essentially rookies for all intents and purposes. 

In recent years passed it didn't annoy me as much because the team just wasn't that good and we knew it.  This year you could they went out and made it better and left the job incomplete. 

We all realize that bullpens and starters don't need to be as good when you have a better lineup right?   There are acceptable reasons for an unbalance lineup.  Going into the season with question marks and ending up with 1/3rd of your lineup as replacement players is not one of them.  

I feel like a damn broken record at this point.  





 

I agree 100% with everything said here... and it isnt that i was glad they lost, only that they had been in 1st place with no motivation to address anything even though it was largely smoke and mirrors based on exactly what youve listed here.

You are correct, what moves can they actually make internally.. .Stefanic... i think wed all like to see that but thats no guarantee.   Buttrey, is he actually ready yet physically?  Bachman still needs to build up.  Beyond that i think weve pretty much graduated almost anyone close.

I too am quite frustrated they didnt do more, the game needs this team in the playoffs desperately, everyone knows this apparently but our own ownership who wont pass some arbitrary line in the sand financially even though they could without it affecting virtually anything.  Now all thats left is trading away from an already depleted farm.

This is a completely self inflicted wound, like so many others in recent years. 

[Stradling]

Shit, sorry @tdawg87

[AngelsLakersFan]

On 5/19/2022 at 11:39 AM, Inside Pitch said:

Like I said in an unrelated thread, I wish Maddon didn't seem to be so formulaic but this may be one of those times where they have data that tells them to do something.  But the overall numbers aren't showing any real propensity to pull guys early as a whole.

I think you nailed it with the damned if you do, damned if you don't.  

I think the stats pretty much say that a marginally better than replacement level bullpen arm is typically more effective than an average starter the third time through the order. A problem does arise when you pull your guys early and run out of bullpen arms late in the game.

[AngelsLakersFan]

11 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Shit, sorry @tdawg87

I missed this thread the first time around, so Toby owes you thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[Angelsjunky]

#imwithtoby

[Inside Pitch]

34 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I think the stats pretty much say that a marginally better than replacement level bullpen arm is typically more effective than an average starter the third time through the order. A problem does arise when you pull your guys early and run out of bullpen arms late in the game.

The numbers I was referring to were the Angels actual usage (pulling guys early), relation to the league.   There is no question guys see their performance dip the more hitters see them.

Id argue what happened in Texas was more of a blip than actual mismanagement, but I didnt watch a couple games, just saw the box scores.

 

[Angels 1961]

Angels have been getting solid starting pitching. When Loup, Tepera and Ortega do their jobs Angels will be fine. Big bonus so far has been Herget hopefully Bradley back soon.

[AngelsLakersFan]

16 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

The numbers I was referring to were the Angels actual usage (pulling guys early), relation to the league.   There is no question guys see their performance dip the more hitters see them.

Id argue what happened in Texas was more of a blip than actual mismanagement, but I didnt watch a couple games, just saw the box scores.

 

Small sample size IP!! 

Texas felt to me like a few other situations where Maddon made a move in the moment and kinda didn't think the whole thing through in terms of the down stream effects. Pretty much all the moves were defensible themselves up till you've reached a point where you let a reliever blow a lead after allowing a 5th consecutive baserunner, and now you are bringing in a 37 year old cast off reliever making his debut with the bases loaded. It's makes you wonder how you got there.

[Inside Pitch]

9 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Small sample size IP!! 

Texas felt to me like a few other situations where Maddon made a move in the moment and kinda didn't think the whole thing through in terms of the down stream effects. Pretty much all the moves were defensible themselves up till you've reached a point where you let a reliever blow a lead after allowing a 5th consecutive baserunner, and now you are bringing in a 37 year old cast off reliever making his debut with the bases loaded. It's makes you wonder how you got there.

The entire season is the only sample size!

I think I've made my feelings on Maddon known, so I'm not defending anyone.  Like I said, didn't watch but the reactions here were enough for me not to watch the games on replay.

As far as the Valdez thing goes...  at least he didn't ask him to intentionally walk in a run

Progress!!!

[Slegnaac]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

The entire season is the only sample size!

I think I've made my feelings on Maddon known, so I'm not defending anyone.  Like I said, didn't watch but the reactions here were enough for me not to watch the games on replay.

As far as the Valdez thing goes...  at least he didn't ask him to intentionally walk in a run

Progress!!!

I think the IBB with the bases loaded is kind of like David Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty disappear. 

You get one shot at it.

[tdawg87]

I take back every fucking stupid thing I said. 

This is the same fucking team as always. It will NEVER fucking change.

Fuck them all. I'm done.

Peace.