Relief Pitching- How do you guess right?

[itsKnoppUitsme]

2 hours ago, stormngt said:

When was the last time the Angeks had a lockdown pen?  2008 or 2009?  

2002

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, Fourts said:

This all goes back to a pathetically weak farm system and lack of pitcher development by the Organization.  RPs are built from within the bottom up.  An occasional outside piece can work out and be added.  But trying to build a whole relief staff from outside is a receipt for disaster -- especially doing so year after year.  The Angels won't have a consistent RP staff until they can be competent with their farm system in drafting (& signing int'l Ps) and developing those pitchers.  

Yep -- failed starters....  

[Stradling]

27 minutes ago, stormngt said:

So one year over a 12 year span.

I have no idea but that’s the one that came to mind. 

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, ADHB said:

Seeing that Eppler drafted a ton of college pitching in rounds 3 and up while he was here, hard to believe not one of them (that I know of) has developed into a major league reliever, or is on the cusp of being a major league reliever.  Seems like when you have that many possibilities, one or two would have worked out.

He mostly drafted SPs -- teams will keep them in that role until they prove they can't pull it off.   But if you want to follow a guy who was drafted as a RP and to date is being used as a RP, look up Chad Sykes.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=sykes-000cha

25 years old, strictly a RP..   He's likely someone they will move up the system quickly because there just isn't a lot of projection there and he will never be anything other than a RP.   

Davis Daniel, Denny Brady are two SP that may see time in the pen sooner rather than later.

[stormngt]

3 hours ago, itsKnoppUitsme said:

2002

Got to disagree.  The combination of Shields and Krod spoiled us.  It seemed like it was automatic win if we entered the 7th a lead.

That ended in 2009.  No one was happy with Fuentes but he was certainly better than those we he had the last 10 years.

[failos]

Just now, stormngt said:

Got to disagree.  The combination of Shields and Krod spoiled us.  It seemed like it was automatic win if we entered the 7th a lead.

That ended in 2009.  No one was happy with Fuentes but he was certainly better than those we he had the last 10 years.

Fuentes was pure trash and so was his attitude, but I agree with the rest of your post

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, failos said:

Fuentes was pure trash and so was his attitude, but I agree with the rest of your post

In 2009 Fuentes had 46 saves in 53 Save attempts.  86.7% save conversion.

I would kill for a bull pen that did their job 87% of the time!

[failos]

11 minutes ago, stormngt said:

In 2009 Fuentes had 46 saves in 53 Save attempts.  86.7% save conversion.

I would kill for a bull pen that did their job 87% of the time!

That's a pretty good point. I guess I really remember those blown saves for some reason.

[REDneck]

For me RP, the pen is the most important facet of a successful team.

Its like good defense or good fundamentals its a necessity

Im old school ...catch the ball ..limit BBs...hit with RISP

The game may have passed me by... But how many games are won or lost in the later innings....espessially for the Angels.

I understand that its a crap shoot with RP pitchers these days, but what I dont understand is how GMs neglect to address this issue every year

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, failos said:

That's a pretty good point. I guess I really remember those blown saves for some reason.

We remember the biggest blown save with Arods HR.  He also was not as good as the person he replaced KRod.  That magnified his failures.   

However after 11 of futility from the bullpen I miss a guy like Fuentes.

[Lou]

5 hours ago, failos said:

Fuentes was pure trash and so was his attitude, 

 

How dare you? Why do you hate kids? 

[NrM]

16 hours ago, Stradling said:

This really isn’t about the Angels, but of course it kind of is.  

The top names on the free agent market for relief pitchers were Hendricks, Yates, Rosenthal and Hand.  

Hendricks has pitched 14 games is trending in the right direction, but has given up runs in 6 of his 14 outings, has a loss and two blown saves.  If the Angels signed him we would be in a better place, but not a single one of us would be happy with his performance.

Yates, out for the year.

Rosenthal hasn’t pitched yet.

Hand is trending in the wrong direction giving up runs in 4 of his last 5 outings.  He got off to the best start after every single major league team passed on him when he went through waivers.  

So how do you guess right?  

You don't. You build a fucking farm system so you don't have to rely on getting lucky in free agency. Simple concept. This teams ineptitude over the last decade is because of our lack of player development in the minors.

 

[Stradling]

8 hours ago, REDneck said:

For me RP, the pen is the most important facet of a successful team.

Its like good defense or good fundamentals its a necessity

Im old school ...catch the ball ..limit BBs...hit with RISP

The game may have passed me by... But how many games are won or lost in the later innings....espessially for the Angels.

I understand that its a crap shoot with RP pitchers these days, but what I dont understand is how GMs neglect to address this issue every year

Probably because it’s nearly impossible to predict which ones will do well and which ones won’t. 

[Stradling]

5 hours ago, NrM said:

You don't. You build a fucking farm system so you don't have to rely on getting lucky in free agency. Simple concept. This teams ineptitude over the last decade is because of our lack of player development in the minors.

 

Thanks @sammyscioscia

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

Strad,

Quite a few solid opinions on here... So, here is my 2 cents from a purely former Closer/setup /swing man collegiate and independent BB pitcher.

1. For me and many of us back in the day. It was mindset. We wanted that ball and were going to stuff it down someone's throat even if we couldn't break glass. There were games I was out there with a spaghetti arm but once the adrenaline kicked I was the BEST OUT THERE. 

2. Either Arm strength or Arm slot. You either threw lights out (like a few guys I played with they were 98mph+ but had no idea where it was going *actual Nuke LaLoosh*). Guys like myself and other's new how to change the arm slot/release point and worked on all of our pitches from each release point. (similar to El Duque).

3. Repertoire and or Grips of the baseball. You either had 3-4+ pitches, threw gas, or knew how to change your grips to allow movement at each arm slot. And you knew where the ball was going! (horrible example the other night was the Alvarez BOMB off Sandavol he threw a 3-2 change up that he turned over where the location was middle down setup by Butera. He should had thrown a regular change up (which would had swept away and down)instead of turning it over to show a screwball action. That if missed it wouldn't run back over the middle of the plate. I had 5 fastball grips (I learned from former big leaguer Steve Rogers each had movement), I threw a slider/slurve, a circle change I also turned it over against right handed hitters, and a forkball/split. 

4. How to guess right? Not force pitchers into a pre-made box let them throw to their strengths. Pound the Zone "Down in the Zone" strike one. And some of the analytics need to be thrown out the window (I mean they are fun to talk about). What is really important? OUTS, Inherited Runners Scored, Whip, Spin Rate in the bully is less important. Example: If they have a great slider and it is consistently out of the zone/or the hitter doesn't chase it's still a ball... And the pitcher has fallen deeper in the count. The Art of Pitching & the Mental side are Gone. It's all about VELO & Spin Rate. I was trained by different definition than those of today. I was successful when given the ball. But I also didn't top 89mph. I was also ready to go in 12 throws in the bully. 

 

 

[T.G.]

8 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

from a purely former Closer/setup /swing man collegiate and independent BB pitcher.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

23 hours ago, ADHB said:

Seeing that Eppler drafted a ton of college pitching in rounds 3 and up while he was here, hard to believe not one of them (that I know of) has developed into a major league reliever, or is on the cusp of being a major league reliever.  Seems like when you have that many possibilities, one or two would have worked out.

And this is part of the problem.... If you remember he always looked through the scrap heap for guys that threw hard (high K Rate and High BB rate) and tried to work with them. Former Major League guys like Petit and Alexander were guys who were away from that cookie cutter and were successful. 

The drafted arms were usually Starters who had some VELO but had to work on their other pitches. Which is part of the problem. If you don't have kids with the feel for their off-speed pitches they may or may not get it. So, then you are drafting one trick ponies who will flame out as they progress. There weren't many CROD's drafted.

What should had been done is a little of both look for starters with 2-3-4 plus pitches and let them sort themselves out. You can tell who get's it and understands making adjustments pretty quickly. You can also figure out who has mechanical issues as they get tired and also don't understand adjustments and those can be your relievers. Also, bring them up quickly! The requirement that they need 4-5 years of minor league development isn't true for bullpen pieces. Unless, they are a true starter for innings. It's been an issue with our Minor League Pitching Organizational Philosophy! We've had old school vs new school and they haven't blended well together!

Is Marcel Lachemann still around? Or, just for SPT? I read he is a Special Assistant... What does that mean? Solid pitching man just on the mental side of the game! We talked quite a bit. That's all I did with my high school arms I coached. The mental side will eat you up!

[WicketMaiden]

5 hours ago, Stradling said:

Probably because it’s nearly impossible to predict which ones will do well and which ones won’t. 

I don't fully accept this narrative that all relief arms are a crap shoot. Yes, some average arms have great years and then regress the following year, but the very elite pitchers perform consistently, year in year out. Check out the stats for someone like Chapman or Jansen, you can see long multi-year runs of sub 3.00 FIP or ERA+ in the 130 to 200 range year after year after year.

The Angels don't develop them and just won't pay the money required to get these reliable, elite arms, so we try to catch lightening in a bottle every year. It doesn't work.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

30 minutes ago, WicketMaiden said:

I don't fully accept this narrative that all relief arms are a crap shoot. Yes, some average arms have great years and then regress the following year, but the very elite pitchers perform consistently, year in year out. Check out the stats for someone like Chapman or Jansen, you can see long multi-year runs of sub 3.00 FIP or ERA+ in the 130 to 200 range year after year after year.

The Angels don't develop them and just won't pay the money required to get these reliable, elite arms, so we try to catch lightening in a bottle every year. It doesn't work.

You also have to look at why the regression? Was it purely they slid through the scouting reports? Or, were they rode hard and put away wet... burnt out/injury? 

I was coached early on by a former starter and World Series winner. Who then became a TOP AL Closer with the Twins. Very cerebral guy and we worked on the Mental side most of the time. Every pitch had it's job to either get an out or set-up the next pitch within the sequence. Rarely did I get into deep counts. 

1. Strike One

2. Strike two

3. Chase pitch

4. Spot/movement

[Chuck]

 

[Mark PT]

On 5/13/2021 at 9:10 AM, Stradling said:

This really isn’t about the Angels, but of course it kind of is.  

The top names on the free agent market for relief pitchers were Hendricks, Yates, Rosenthal and Hand.  

Hendricks has pitched 14 games is trending in the right direction, but has given up runs in 6 of his 14 outings, has a loss and two blown saves.  If the Angels signed him we would be in a better place, but not a single one of us would be happy with his performance.

Yates, out for the year.

Rosenthal hasn’t pitched yet.

Hand is trending in the wrong direction giving up runs in 4 of his last 5 outings.  He got off to the best start after every single major league team passed on him when he went through waivers.  

So how do you guess right?  

For me, definitely underqualified, it starts with mechanics. These throw the ball as hard as they can, chuckers, would never be on my list, as they are always very inconsistent. Then its pitch combination. What pitches compliment each other so that batters can be kept off-balance. Then control, is most important. Can they change speeds on their pitches and maintain control? 

[PattyD22]

15 hours ago, stormngt said:

We remember the biggest blown save with Arods HR.  He also was not as good as the person he replaced KRod.  That magnified his failures.   

However after 11 of futility from the bullpen I miss a guy like Fuentes.

For me, his biggest blown save was Nick Adenhart’s last game.  I just remember being at that game and slowly watching the A’s chip away and finally win the game.

like @failossaid, I tend to remember his blown saves and conveniently forgot he was pretty good.

[failos]

14 hours ago, Lou said:

 

How dare you? Why do you hate kids? 

Gross. Kids stink

[failos]

15 hours ago, stormngt said:

We remember the biggest blown save with Arods HR.  He also was not as good as the person he replaced KRod.  That magnified his failures.   

However after 11 of futility from the bullpen I miss a guy like Fuentes.

Oh man…thanks for bringing up the Arod HR. I’m going to spend the rest of the day drinking

[Lou]

16 minutes ago, failos said:

Gross. Kids stink

Stop sniffing them.