You know what is really expensive?

[T.G.]

Let's not forget that when Eppler signed Harvey, Allen and Cahill to one year deals - most of us thought this was the Angels' way of saying - we'll go all in next year.

It's next year.

 

[Warfarin]

I think the key thing for us, really, is going to be to continue to build our farm system and find ways to improve it.  I am all-in on signing who we need to in order to improve our team (Cole, Wheeler, Grandal, etc), but the key thing we CANNOT do is trade our minor leaguers at this present time.  Down the line, as we accrue more talent, then sure - that's a useful strategy.  But not at this present time.

I do think Arte wants to win, but every single owner in this sport and all others does want to make a huge profit, too.  In order for us to create a winning organization, we must invest in some players NOW to get better, but we absolutely must continue to build our farm system and invest in tools/techniques/technology that will help them improve.  Don't trade Adell, Marsh, Jackson, etc etc.  Let them develop, as they will help create balance for us - good, cheap young talent to go with very expensive (and likely overpaid) veterans.

[Inside Pitch]

9 minutes ago, True Grich said:

Let's not forget that when Eppler signed Harvey, Allen and Cahill to one year deals - most of us thought this was the Angels' way of saying - we'll go all in next year.

It's next year

Thats why I didn't see it as a duped situation -- he punted.   He saw greener pastures ahead, a better place to invest resources and rolled the dice that those players wouldn't be extended..   But I think we all agree it's now time.

I've gone back and forth on whats feasible vs what's fiscally responsible and honestly, when you look at the history of big contracts to truly elite pitchers and compare it to those of middle level guys and mid level contracts the top end guys have a better return, even if they ended up crash and burning in the end..    This team needs front end pitching so bad it's not even funny.

This is Arte's offseason.  He's taken his beatings but he's got a chance to try it again this time with the Angels own version of a potential "core four"-lite -- Trout, Ohatani, Adell, possibly Marsh...   He needs to surround those guys with premium talent on the mound because it's the one area besides catcher where the Angels lack legit depth at and no legit solutions.

I actually expect the young pitchers to take a big step forward this year for various reasons -- but not needing them to all step up in order to win is vital.

[kevinb]

At the end of the day any business, and yes the Angels are a business, only have so much resource to use. Is paying two players on a 25 man roster 1/4 to 1/3 of the payroll smart? Who knows only the Angels can answer that question. There are a lot of ways to win in baseball and not all of them have to do with signing the top free agents every year. 

[Warfarin]

16 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Thats why I didn't see it as a duped situation -- he punted.   He saw greener pastures ahead, a better place to invest resources and rolled the dice that those players wouldn't be extended..   But I think we all agree it's now time.

I've gone back and forth on whats feasible vs what's fiscally responsible and honestly, when you look at the history of big contracts to truly elite pitchers and compare it to those of middle level guys and mid level contracts the top end guys have a better return, even if they ended up crash and burning in the end..    This team needs front end pitching so bad it's not even funny.

This is Arte's offseason.  He's taken his beatings but he's got a chance to try it again this time with the Angels own version of a potential "core four"-lite -- Trout, Ohatani, Adell, possibly Marsh...   He needs to surround those guys with premium talent on the mound because it's the one area besides catcher where the Angels lack legit depth at and no legit solutions.

I actually expect the young pitchers to take a big step forward this year for various reasons -- but not needing them to all step up in order to win is vital.

Agreed.  Canning as a #4/#5 SP, and Barria, Suarez, Sandoval, etc as optionable, serviceable depth is much better than counting on those guys to be #2-#5 SPs for us.  Canning is a rotation fixture, and the other guys can get spot starts and compete against another, such that the cream of the crop can potentially become a mainstay.

[Angel Oracle]

Cole checks off ALL of the boxes (durability, Cy Young caliber pitching the past two seasons, no mediocre seasons in Pittsburgh, local product), plus Arte has to be pissed after four straight sub .500 seasons (first time since 1971-1977)

=

Go ALL in on Cole, even if he costs 7 years/$238 million. 

Keep the key farm prospects, and create a perennial contending team that has a solid farm feeding into it each season. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Angel Oracle

[Docwaukee]

33 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Thats why I didn't see it as a duped situation -- he punted.   He saw greener pastures ahead, a better place to invest resources and rolled the dice that those players wouldn't be extended..   But I think we all agree it's now time.

I've gone back and forth on whats feasible vs what's fiscally responsible and honestly, when you look at the history of big contracts to truly elite pitchers and compare it to those of middle level guys and mid level contracts the top end guys have a better return, even if they ended up crash and burning in the end..    This team needs front end pitching so bad it's not even funny.

This is Arte's offseason.  He's taken his beatings but he's got a chance to try it again this time with the Angels own version of a potential "core four"-lite -- Trout, Ohatani, Adell, possibly Marsh...   He needs to surround those guys with premium talent on the mound because it's the one area besides catcher where the Angels lack legit depth at and no legit solutions.

I actually expect the young pitchers to take a big step forward this year for various reasons -- but not needing them to all step up in order to win is vital.

I know you have mentioned this before and I think it gets washed over because it's hard to quantify.  

There is more talent among Canning, Sandoval, Suarez and Barria than people think because of what they saw from last year.  

I agree that putting the team in a position where you don't need all of them to get better is very important, but I also believe the contribution from that group in 2020 will be far more than people anticipate.  

We have become so accustomed to injuries and poor performance on the pitching side that there is a built in pessimism toward all angel pitchers where it doesn't seem realistic for them to just be normal rookies that go through a normal development process by getting major league exposure.  They all have a strong track record of success in the minor leagues.  That doesn't always translate, but it does a fair amount of the time.  

My point is that just because we are jaded from past events on our in house options doesn't mean that they won't succeed and it also doesn't mean that the team should go out and over spend on guys that are free agents just because we have some sort of PTSD.  

[Stradling]

I have faith in Canning, I have faith in Sandoval as an unknown, but liked what I saw.  Suarez just seemed to have zero stuff and Barria  again I am not sure if his stuff plays up.  

[Warfarin]

2 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I know you have mentioned this before and I think it gets washed over because it's hard to quantify.  

There is more talent among Canning, Sandoval, Suarez and Barria than people think because of what they saw from last year.  

I agree that putting the team in a position where you don't need all of them to get better is very important, but I also believe the contribution from that group in 2020 will be far more than people anticipate.  

We have become so accustomed to injuries and poor performance on the pitching side that there is a built in pessimism toward all angel pitchers where it doesn't seem realistic for them to just be normal rookies that go through a normal development process by getting major league exposure.  They all have a strong track record of success in the minor leagues.  That doesn't always translate, but it does a fair amount of the time.  

My point is that just because we are jaded from past events on our in house options doesn't mean that they won't succeed and it also doesn't mean that the team should go out and over spend on guys that are free agents just because we have some sort of PTSD.  

Yeah, that's my feeling too, and it's why I'd be fine if we *only* signed 2 SPs instead of 3, and instead using some cash and allocated it towards a catcher.

If we signed Cole + a legit 2nd pitcher (Wheeler, Ryu, Bumgarner, etc etc) .. that should be pretty good, because we also sorta getting a 3rd pitcher back in Ohtani, too.

A rotation of Cole, Ryu, Ohtani, Heaney, Canning, with Barria, Sandoval, Suarez, opener/Pena as immediate depth should actually be fairly good.  I don't expect all of those young pitchers to be terrible.  I think Calloway will help them significantly, and I also expect to see progress, too, as they gain more reps.

If they struggle and we need help, then sure, we can look for some.  It should be easier to find a serviceable backend SP to bolster our rotation come mid-season than it would be to find an ace or top/mid rotation SP like Cole/Ryu/etc.  So for now, I'd say - 2 legit SPs, maybe a flier-type for a 3rd SP that doesn't cost much of anything, and spend $$ on a legit catcher.

[Dtwncbad]

I have lots of faith that Canning and others can handle the back half of the rotation.  It is really hard to develop your own true ace.  How many are there??  It’s rare.

The fact that the Angel have to acquire the front half is actually pretty normal.  Most teams get an ace with either money or prospects.

I am quite happy the Angels can land an ace with cash and not have to sell the farm (yeah I know the draft pick but you get the point).

The “price” of keeping your farm is the dollars are huge.

But it is the right play to spend the money and keep the prospects.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Dtwncbad

[Angel Oracle]

At least now there is a real pitching coach to work with the young pitchers, and not some all analytics guy who never pitched beyond a few innings of pro ball.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Angel Oracle

[Rally Gorilla]

4 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

1). It’s all stupid money.  But the money is there.  It will be in either the owners pocket or the players pocket.  Anything freely negotiated means both sides agree.  So why should I be rooting for Cole to sign somewhere else rather than make a deal here where both sides agree?

2). What exactly is the objection to players making monster money?  We never hear anyone have any objection to Cameron Diaz making $40m a year making 2 lame movies.

3). The Angels can afford a staggering increase in payroll MORE than they can afford to get cute trying to save money right now and continue miss the postseason for this whole era.  The team brand is extremely, extremely important in the value of the franchise, and nothing will build MORE wealth for Arte Moreno over the next 5-7 years than being a mainstay in the deep postseason.

I would have no objection if the Angels decided to go crazy on spending like the Dodgers have done in the recent past.   The Dodgers signed just about everyone they could, and then ate lots of contracts that didn't work out and then kept signing more players.    But, Arte has shown over and over that he will not keep spending to make up for contracts gone bad.   So, if Cole gets hurt or just doesn't age well, we could be looking at another long period of being handcuffed when it comes to filling other team needs and more extended periods of not making the playoffs.   I'd rather see some other team take the risk on Cole and the Angels use the resources to sign two or three legit starters to shorter contracts and still have money to sign solid position players as needed. 

[Mark68]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

I have faith in Canning, I have faith in Sandoval as an unknown, but liked what I saw.  Suarez just seemed to have zero stuff and Barria  again I am not sure if his stuff plays up.  

This is where I am on the young guys. I actually think Canning has the stuff to be a #3/occasional #2 pitcher. I love his stuff. Sandoval (small sample size) at least seems competent. I have zero faith in Suarez & Barria.

 

I love Cole. Pitchers of his caliber at his age don't become free agents very often. I think he solidifies the rotation by himself, and I think he will be a good role model/mentor for the younger guys, especially his fellow Bruin, Canning.

Cole has the stuff, he has the track record, he has the age (his prime) and he has the attitude it takes to front a young rotation. In short, he's a unicorn. 

In other words:

[Rally Gorilla]

3 minutes ago, Mark68 said:

I love Cole. Pitchers of his caliber at his age don't become free agents very often. I think he solidifies the rotation by himself, and I think he will be a good role model/mentor for the younger guys, especially his fellow Bruin, Canning.

Cole has the stuff, he has the track record, he has the age (his prime) and he has the attitude it takes to front a young rotation. In short, he's a unicorn. 

Even adding a true ace like Cole is not going to be enough to solidify our rotation.    It was literally the worst in the MLB last season.     And I disagree that he is likely to be a good role model/mentor, based on the lack of judgement, maturity and character that he showed after game seven.   For the same reasons, I am concerned that he has what it takes to be dominant as he ages and his 97 MPH fastball starts to slow down.

[Lou]

he wore a hat!

[Dtwncbad]

27 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Even adding a true ace like Cole is not going to be enough to solidify our rotation.    It was literally the worst in the MLB last season.     And I disagree that he is likely to be a good role model/mentor, based on the lack of judgement, maturity and character that he showed after game seven.   For the same reasons, I am concerned that he has what it takes to be dominant as he ages and his 97 MPH fastball starts to slow down.

Name the available starting pitcher that would help the Angels more than Cole.

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

Name the available starting pitcher that would help the Angels more than Cole.

Does said pitcher need to be alive, or a non-fictional person?

 

[Mark68]

7 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Even adding a true ace like Cole is not going to be enough to solidify our rotation.    It was literally the worst in the MLB last season.     And I disagree that he is likely to be a good role model/mentor, based on the lack of judgement, maturity and character that he showed after game seven.   For the same reasons, I am concerned that he has what it takes to be dominant as he ages and his 97 MPH fastball starts to slow down.

Let's see how you react when someone thrusts a microphone in your face after your team loses a tough Game 7 in a tough World Series when you could have been used to hold the lead, instead of Will "Flamethrower" Harris. I think he was done with the Series, and he was probably done with the Astros at that point. 

I think Cole would be instrumental in helping the young hurlers learn how to pitch. Teaching them sequencing, learning to use the hitters' vulnerabilities against them. He learned from one of the best (Verlander) and can certainly pass that knowledge along. And like Verlander, I believe he can transform himself into less of a power pitcher as he gets older. He already gives up few walks. 

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, Mark68 said:

Let's see how you react when someone thrusts a microphone in your face after your team loses a tough Game 7 in a tough World Series when you could have been used to hold the lead, instead of Will "Flamethrower" Harris.

So... the Angels are signing Rally Gorilla? 

[Mark68]

Just now, True Grich said:

So... the Angels are signing Rally Gorilla? 

If he can pitch, sure.

[T.G.]

"Thrusting a microphone" is a very aggressive move.

[Lou]

7 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Does said pitcher need to be alive, or a non-fictional person?

you're thinking of Sidd Finch, aren't you?

[Dtwncbad]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Does said pitcher need to be alive, or a non-fictional person?

 

I think the Angels should steer away from Cole and sign Joe Ace, 22 year old with 112 mph fastball, fully mechanical arm, with a 78000 spin rate, who says he will sign with the Angels for 1 year at $750k per year, with unlimited annual 1 year team options for the same $750k.

Or sign his twin brother (three minutes YOUNGER) that also hits .475 with 88 homers and steals 120 bases available with the same deal.

Frankly, maybe the Angels should wait even on these guys too and at least see what happens at the winter meetings first.

[T.G.]

Joe Ace just changed agents...

Yup... Scott Boras is his agent now.

[yk9001]

Buncha Haters, @Rally Gorilla.  During the hot stove silly season, people here don't like to discuss that this franchise for a lot of years chases the expensive new toy, the toy becomes quasi-malfunctioning almost immediately, and then the franchise is in a permanent hold waiting for sh*tty contracts to come off the books.  Arte has paid premium dollars for GM Jr, Josh Hamilton and Pujols, and these guys crapped the bed practically on opening day.

 

Maybe Cole is the play to make.  But to dismiss the downside so pissily, as these chumps here are doing, is silly.