Bryant and/or Baez May be traded

[Stradling]

7 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

While true, you also roll he dice on the farm hoping they'll live up to or exceed expectations. 

Honest question IP, what is your plan to improve the team without leveraging the farm system this offseason and next in hopes of winning in 2021.

Personally I don't think I can suffer through another awful season. I'm good without making the playoffs in 2020 if we can have a winning season and have the resources and talent from within to win big in 2021. 

Let's see your master plan. 

Better question, is it an awful season if they sign Cole and a tier 2 starter, trade for another one and they win 88-90 games?  

[Chuck]

8 minutes ago, Lou said:

how many of those players are ranked in the top 100?

They don't have to be top 100 prospects to bring in star talent. 

The Astros got Gerrit Cole from the Pirates for Joe Musgrove, third baseman Colin Moran, reliever Michael Feliz and outfield prospect Jason Martin. None of which were top 100 guys. 

The Diamondbacks got JD Martinez from the Tigers for Dawel Lugo, Sergio Alcantara and Jose King (none of which were even the teams top 5 guys in their own farm system, let alone top 100). 

There are others, but those are a couple off the top of my head. 

 

[Angel Oracle]

What Strad said.

Remember all of the injuries this past season.    If they cut back on those, and can sign Cole and one solid enough innings eater, I can see at least 83-85 wins happening...much closer to WC contention than this past season. 

[Claude]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

My facts make me a superfan, your facts make you?

Chill Strad. There’s absolutely no reason to lose your lunch here. Everyone has different opinions, good or bad, right or wrong. You don’t have to be the judge and jury about every persons opinion in every thread. Everyone should be able to express their thoughts freely as long as it doesn’t get personal or hurtful. We’re a community here so just relax. No matter how you respond to me I would still have a beer with you anytime. 

[Claude]

5 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

What Strad said.

Remember all of the injuries this past season.    If they cut back on those, and can sign Cole and one solid enough innings eater, I can see at least 83-85 wins happening...much closer to WC contention than this past season. 

What Chuck said. We’re most likely to fall short again next season and that’s ok if it means a stronger more sustainable future. 

[Vlad27Trout27]

gutting the system, would be the most idioitc move ever.Teams not going anywhere until we add some young and hungry talent and we are closing on this. 

you go hard in free agency. Choice 1 is Cole, than you move from there.

[Tank]

2 hours ago, Lou said:

we're not getting Cole (or a different #1 starter), another good SP and Bryant or Baez. 

well we're certainly not with that kind of attitude, mister.

[Inside Pitch]

6 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

While true, you also roll he dice on the farm hoping they'll live up to or exceed expectations. 

Honest question IP, what is your plan to improve the team without leveraging the farm system this offseason and next in hopes of winning in 2021.

Fix the rotation first and foremost. 

I've gone on record repeatedly, get a front half guy early then continue to chase Cole.  Our issues start there, our needs are greatest there, and I think it's there that we have the greatest opportunity to improve.   I, personally want to see them sign two guys who could be viewed as 2's or better and then another guy that stands a good chance to give us innings.  If Canning can be our number 5, then great.   I think too much is being made of the struggles of our guys that should have been in the minors -- and if you or anyone wants me to cite examples of top 100 guys that came up and had their dicks kicked in this year, I have a list.

I think our second biggest area of need is catcher.  We have nothing remotely ready to help, Stassi is a project at best.   I think they need to find someone to catch.  

I have for years been resistant to spending.  I wasn't one of the people calling for Heyward or Yu, or any of those guys.  I have been completely consistent in saying that until the farm is ready to produce players capable of helping the MLB team it would be a waste...   If you need a list of teams that tried to spend without being ready to spend and failed miserably, I have a list.   Thing is, I believe the Angels are finally ready to spend -- Rengifo, Fletcher, Adell, Marsh are why.  I believe this is the moment they have been working towards for the last four years, I believe that if ever Arte wanted to prove he is willing to spend if it makes sense, this is the season.  I don't care about his bottom line, I don't care if he has to take it in the shorts for a year or two -- it's time.

I'm not opposed to trading prospects to improve the team -- but I think moving Marsh would be a mistake for the reasons I mentioned above.    We have two guys, three if you believe Jam Jones is all the way back who could come up and transition into impactful players at the high end, and useful players on the low end -- I'd be unwilling to trade two of them.  Jodyrn Adams, Jackson, Maitan  -- all trade fodder to me and as you know I was higher on Jackson going into 2019 than most of us were -- but he's in Low A, and he's the epitome of high risk.

Mostly, I'm against going all in this year because this team does have some guys that are unsettled.   LaStella has only hit for power this year, and how much of that is due to the ball -- I dunno, I havent looked at it deeply enough.  I'm not willing to shit on Upton like you and others but, he's 33 and he saw his some pretty significant drops in his hard hit data -- how much of that comes from his lower half being compromised -- again, I dunno, but it's a reason for concern and Marsh and Adell are both in place to replace him if he continues to slide.   BTW, a guy slamming his foot into concrete and breaking himself isnt my opinion of being injury prone and I find any talk of that type to be completely inane.  If you want my opinion of guys who are injury prone, I have a list.

6 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

Personally I don't think I can suffer through another awful season. I'm good without making the playoffs in 2020 if we can have a winning season and have the resources and talent from within to win big in 2021. 

You have to go back to 1999 to find a season as bad as this one.   I find it extremely humorous that a year after getting rid of MS, the consensus is to get his quotable clone here to help turn things around.   This year sucked.  This year also probably did more to help the franchise than any season in the last four.

[Inside Pitch]

41 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Let's see your master plan. 

I answered you, at least I hope I did.   Now answer something for me..

Where does your master plan leave us if they do all the things you want and it doesn't work?   I'm unwilling to gut the system because needs change and bad money stays on the books for a long time.

I'm not willing to revisit 2015.

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

Fix the rotation first and foremost. 

I've gone on record repeatedly, get a front half guy early then continue to chase Cole.  Our issues start there, our needs are greatest there, and I think it's there that we have the greatest opportunity to improve.   I, personally want to see them sign two guys who could be viewed as 2's or better and then another guy that stands a good chance to give us innings.  If Canning can be our number 5, then great.   I think too much is being made of the struggles of our guys that should have been in the minors -- and if you or anyone wants me to cite examples of top 100 guys that came up and had their dicks kicked in this year, I have a list.

I think our second biggest area of need is catcher.  We have nothing remotely ready to help, Stassi is a project at best.   I think they need to find someone to catch.  

I have for years been resistant to spending.  I wasn't one of the people calling for Heyward or Yu, or any of those guys.  I have been completely consistent in saying that until the farm is capable of producing players capable of helping the MLB team it would be a waste...   If you need a list of teams that tried to do spend without being ready to spend and failed miserably, I have a list.   Thing is, I believe the Angels are finally ready to spend -- Rengifo, Fletcher, Adell, Marsh are why.  I believe this is the moment they have been working towards for the last four years, I believe that if ever Arte wanted to prove he is willing to spend if it makes sense, this is the season.  I don't care about his bottom line, I don't care if he has to take it in the shorts for a year or two -- it's time.

I'm not opposed to trading prospects to improve the team -- but I think moving Marsh would be a mistake for the reasons I mentioned above.    We have two guys, three if you believe Jam Jones is all the way back who could come up and transition into impactful players at the high end, and useful players on the low end -- I'd be unwilling to trade two of them.  Jodyrn Adams, Jackson, Maitan  -- all trade fodder to me and as you know I was higher on Jackson going into 2019 than most of us were -- but he's in Low A, and he's the epitome of high risk.

Mostly, I'm against going all in this year because this team does have some guys that are unsettled.   LaStella has only hit for power this year, and how much of that is due to the ball -- I dunno, I havent looked at it deeply enough.  I'm not willing to shit on Upton like you and others but, he's 33 and he saw his some pretty significant drops in his hard hit data -- how much of that comes from his lower half being compromised -- again, I dunno, but it's a reason for concern and Marsh and Adell are both in place to replace him if he continues to slide.   BTW, a guy slamming his foot into concrete and breaking himself isnt my opinion of being injury prone and I find any talk of that type to be completely inane.

You have to go back to 1999 to find a season as bad as this one.   I find it extremely humorous that a year after getting rid of MS, the consensus is to get his quotable clone here to help turn things around.   This year sucked.  This year also probably did more to help the franchise than any season in the last four.

 

100% all of this.  I was however in favor of both Heyward and Yu.  

[Sherlock31]

Trade Adell and Canning for Bryant and sign Betts, Cole, Grandel and Bum....

 

World series here we come!! 

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, Sherlock31 said:

Trade Adell and Canning for Bryant and sign Betts, Cole, Grandel and Bum....

 

World series here we come!! 

Betts isn’t a free agent yet.  

[Chuck]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I answered you, at least I hope I did.   Now answer something for me..

Where does your master plan leave us if they do all the things you want and it doesn't work?   I'm unwilling to gut the system because needs change and bad money stays on the books for a long time.

I'm not willing to revisit 2015.

My master plan is simple, but expensive. No prospects move in my plan.

Here's my plan if we decide to keep everyone and improve the team via FA like we did in 2004. 

Decline Kole Calhoun's option. Let Hermosillo, Goodwin and maybe sign some other low cost FA outfielders to battle it out for the RF job.

Sign Gerrit Cole. This team needs a true #1. 

Sign one of Wheeler, Ryu or Odorizzi. Either of these fit the #2/#3 starter tag. Ohtani has the stuff to be a #1 or #2.

Sign Donaldson to a 3-year deal or break that facking bank for Rendon if he accepts a deal 6-7 year or under deal. 

Sign one of Grandal, d'Arnaud or Castro for C. 

Trade Simba for a SP prospect that's close or for a guy like DeScalfani (Fletcher becomes the SS, La Stella is our 2B with Rengifo challenging for playing time and backing up)

 

 

 

[Inside Pitch]

I could get behind anything that retains the the minor league depth...   I cant imagine Donaldson -- but Ill hold out hope for Grandal.

[Docwaukee]

46 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Then it's going to be another long season. 

The Angels need to have another 2004 type offseason. 

They got two solid arms in Colon and Escobar and Vlad and Guillen (who was coming off a big 2003 campaign). 

you want 2019/20 equivalents of that?  

Vlad was arguably the top FA that year so getting Cole would be equivalent
Colon was solid to that point with a 121 era+ which would equal Bumgarner
Escobar was a solid avg pitcher but only 27 at the time.  There aren't opportunities to sneak up on a guy like that anymore.  Wheeler is probably the closest comp.  
Guillen, like Escobar was a guy we snuck up on but again, there isn't much opportunity for that these days.  There really isn't a comp for him except for maybe Castellanos who doesn't come close defensively and is likely to get paid very well.  Also, not a good fit considering we should be targeting a C or 3b probably.  Grandal is still the best fit that I see if we are going to add a position player.  

That's 80-90m in additional payroll and not gonna happen.  

Also, most were somewhat lukewarm on Escobar, Colon and Guillen so maybe they do add an under the radar type to the offense via trade like another La Stella type.  

Most people think the offense was bad because they remember what they saw at the end of the season but forget that when people were healthy we had one of the top offenses in the league.  You've got to pick your battles and while I'd love to have an upgrade in the middle of the lineup, I wouldn't make that as much of a priority.  I still think Grandal is the missing link and would provide tremendous balance where Upton could move down to 5th or even 6th if you put Ohtani 4th and sandwich Fletcher and La Stella around Trout.  

*********SICK LINEUP ALER!!!!***************

Fletcher
Trout
La Stella
Ohtani
Grandal
Upton
Pujols/Thaiss or maybe we take a stab at another 1b option to hit vs. RHers 
Adell eventually with Goodwin vs. RHers 
Simmons

That lineup could score 850 runs.  

from apr 6th to July 30th of this year (101 games) the offense was top 5 - on an 865 run pace.  

even if you want a more conservative estimate ie from the time they bagged Cozart and Bour and Bourjos etc to when Trout went out, we scored 694 runs in 135 games.  That's still close to an 840 pace.  That would put the team in the top ten.  

So it's not that we couldn't use a bat but what gives the team the most bang for it's buck.  Hey, don't get me wrong, if Arte wants to open up payroll more then I'm all for it.  

But let's also be realistic.  The top teams in baseball all pretty much won about 100 games.  It's damn unlikely and unrealistic to expect this team to win 100 games next year.  Frankly the bat you're looking for is named Jo Adell and we likely won't see him performing at an elite level in mlb till 2022.  

[Pujols4MVP]

So the Cubs want to go nuclear with their roster & create a new curse that isn't broken until the year 2124......

[Docwaukee]

If you trade for Baez or Bryant, you essentially open up a 2yr window.  If Arte wants to do that then he better support the rest of it financially because after those two years, this franchise could be left holding it's junk with an overpaid roster and very little talent in the farm system.  There are way more teams out there that have failed by forcing the issue than ones where going all in has been even remotely successful.  

[Blarg]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

and if you or anyone wants me to cite examples of top 100 guys that came up and had their dicks kicked in this year, I have a list.

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

If you need a list of teams that tried to do spend without being ready to spend and failed miserably, I have a list.

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

If you want my opinion of guys who are injury prone, I have a list.

You don't want to be on IP's list.

[Angel Oracle]

Humorous note: at a LB State basketball game (two years ago, not in the Stone Ages), UCI's Russell Turner is known for baiting refs the whole game.   

So as Turner baited the refs the first time, I acted like Chris Jericho, taking out an imaginary clipboard and pen, stuck the imaginary pen straight up and clicked it, and then shouted to Turner "You know what happens when you bait refs the whole game?   You know what happens, Russell Turner?    You just made THE LIST!"

Dude right in back of me shouts, "You're kidding me right?   You gotta be a WWE fan?"    I turned around and nodded, to which he said that a pal of his works for the WWE behind the scenes.     

Still trying to get the LB State crowd into the YES! chants.   But they are as quiet as a library nowadays.  

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

9 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

the Angels have to spend money to allow the farm to develop.  we're still at a stage where there is not enough in the development system to move the talent necessary to get players like this.  I think more then anything a lot of Angels fans were wrong about what the condition of the farm was after the 2018 season.  Eppler and Swanson aren't magicians.  A historically bad farm takes a long time to get back on track.  They've done well relative to the situation, but top to bottom the farm is still not deep enough to execute these kinds of trades without really compromising the progress that has been made.  That seems pretty obvious to me now.

Great post UndertheHalo!

Also, no matter what everyone here believes not all of the kids will work out and even become marginally serviceable players in the future. Ratings and Top 30 Prospect Lists be damned.

[Fish Oil]

9 hours ago, wopphil said:

Would anyone agree to take Darvish and 75 to 80 percent of his remaining contract if it came with Quintana and didnt require parting with Adell or Marsh? 

Before planning the idea, Darvish was very good this year and mostly healthy, and Quintana's FIP was almost a run better than his ERA. 

Quintana seems redundant. We already have enough back of the rotation types and I wouldn't want to spend 10M for another one.
Darvish, on the other hand, is an interesting thought. If they would eat a chunk of change and trade him for a scrub, and if we could still afford Cole, then yes.

[Angel Oracle]

Darvish had his second best WHIP in 2019, and was amongst the NL leaders in Ks/9 innings (11.1), while pitching 178 innings.

If the Cubs absorbed 1/2 of his remaining salary, the Halos would owe him on average $10.125 million/season through 2023 (much less than with Nibs).    With that scenario, what would the Cubs request in exchange for Darvish?   

If the Cubs absorbed 1/3 of his remaining salary, the Halos would owe him on average $13.5 million/season through 2023 (much less than with Nibs).   What would the request in exchange be?

If the Cubs absorbed 1/4 of his remaining salary, the Halos would owe him on average $15.2 million/season through 2023 (much less than with Nibs).   What would the request in exchange be?  

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

8 minutes ago, Fish Oil said:

Quintana seems redundant. We already have enough back of the rotation types and I wouldn't want to spend 10M for another one.
Darvish, on the other hand, is an interesting thought. If they would eat a chunk of change and trade him for a scrub, and if we could still afford Cole, then yes.

Quintana is a 3/4 similar to a Heaney.

We will sign 1 RH and 1 LH starter. I've dropped a few names among them in other threads.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

1 minute ago, Angel Oracle said:

Darvish had his second best WHIP in 2019, and was amongst the NL leaders in Ks/9 innings (11.1), while pitching 178 innings.

If the Cubs absorbed 1/2 of his remaining salary, the Halos would owe him on average $10.125 million/season through 2023 (much less than with Nibs).    With that scenario, what would the Cubs request in exchange for Darvish?   

AO, 

Darvish just doesnt do it for me. I think he lacks what Tenaka said.....Marbles!

[Angel Oracle]

1 minute ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

AO, 

Darvish just doesnt do it for me. I think he lacks what Tenaka said.....Marbles!

That would be a concern then.