Should the Angels add a top tier bat in addition to arms?

[UndertheHalo]

If you’re talking about the Angels making a deep post season run it’s pretty obvious to me that they need another bat.  I think the path forward is using whatever value Simmons has in a trade.  It’s too bad he’s had such a rough year.  Really too bad for the Angels.  Of course that’s how everything goes for the Angels so

David Fletcher, LaStella, and Rengifo should man the middle infield.  The Angels should try and get a more traditional profile at 3B. Obviously, this isn’t easy.  The path to being better is a lot more clear then the path to being really good.  I’m not really sure if they’ll be able to pull it off.  Of course if Adell shows up in the majors and is immediately a star, that makes things seem a lot better. 

Its not my money so I don’t give a shit.  I’m a fan and I want them to get Cole and Rendon.  I obviously have no illusions about how unlikely that is.  But I mean. Fu*ck Arte, you’re not getting any younger.  You’re going to make plenty of money off the Angels with the equity you have in the team.  Try and get your ring.  Make all this shit worth it. 

[angelsnationtalk]

9 hours ago, Sean-Regan said:

Hw are we categorizing main bats? Power numbers? Because La Stella was great at the plate before injury. Fletcher has been solid on base and leading off. Simmons had a bat the last two years. He didn’t really have time to get out of his mini slump this year before getting injured. Since then, he’s been returning quickly and I doubt he’s 100%. Despite a lot of injuries, the Halo offense has been inside he top ten all year.

People can say Calhoun will be gone next year, but actually Calhoun’s numbers haven’t been substantially above average outside of increased power.

I genuinely don’t know where we would add if we did add a bat. DH isn’t available for more than occasional at bats. I don’t want to change up the left side of the infield with Simmons, Fletcher, La Stella, and Rengifo, and I doubt the front office is even considering the possibility. Pujols isn’t retiring, so there’re few enough at bats at first base. If anyone thinks they’re adding an outfielder, they’re nuts. So unless, they go for an upgrade at catcher, this is it. 

Yeah I think this thread is basing it off of players capable of consistently hitting it over the fence. And I 100% agree there’s no real room for it. Obviously we have an infield logjam with Simmons, Rengifo, Fletcher, LaStella, Thaiss, Pujols and maybe even Ward/Walsh looking for playing time in 2020. Let’s say Ward/Walsh are in AAA. But at some point one of these 8 names will have to be traded for pitching of some form. 

The main focus should and will be strictly on pitching. I personally don’t think the Angels add a solidified solid bat (if they do) until they are in strong contention for the division which will be MAYBE 2021 and likely 2022.

[Angel Oracle]

Won’t Rendon command Arenado money, since they are the two best 3B in MLB and pretty comparable?

[angelsnationtalk]

2 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

If you’re talking about the Angels making a deep post season run it’s pretty obvious to me that they need another bat.  I think the path forward is using whatever value Simmons has in a trade.  It’s too bad he’s had such a rough year.  Really too bad for the Angels.  Of course that’s how everything goes for the Angels so

David Fletcher, LaStella, and Rengifo should man the middle infield.  The Angels should try and get a more traditional profile at 3B. Obviously, this isn’t easy.  The path to being better is a lot more clear then the path to being really good.  I’m not really sure if they’ll be able to pull it off.  Of course if Adell shows up in the majors and is immediately a star, that makes things seem a lot better. 

Its not my money so I don’t give a shit.  I’m a fan and I want them to get Cole and Rendon.  I obviously have no illusions about how unlikely that is.  But I mean. Fu*ck Arte, you’re not getting any younger.  You’re going to make plenty of money off the Angels with the equity you have in the team.  Try and get your ring.  Make all this shit worth it. 

I hear your point but signing a high profile bat right now really strangles us for a few years. It limits our ability to contend for 2 years. You’re right, maybe they trade Simmons and that offsets the cost a bit, but the focus should only be on pitching. The Angels will likely make it with a WC spot for the next two years. Angels should focus the next two years on solidifying the rotation and making it a juggernaut. We’ve got the bats developing in the minors which should come together by 2022. Pair that with the rotation we’ve built and it’s show time for awhile. 

I do understand that we shouldn’t be waiting till then since we’re wasting Trout’s years. But there’s two factors that play into this. 

1: we want to contend for more than 1-2 years

2: when Trout signed his contract Eppler probably told him our window is dynasty team for at least 5-7 years. WITH chances of making a run a few years before and after. He could’ve said “in 2020-2021 we should be in the WC and push our way in the postseason. Come 2022-2028 we should be division winners and World Series favorites because of this this this this and this with money for this and this and this.” 

It’s been 10 years since we won a playoff game. I know we’ve been saying it, but this time it actually can be said: we’re finally back in it. 

[tdawg87]

I agree that Arte should nut up. 

Do we really want the best player in a generation to never win a playoff game? Frankly that whole narrative is pissing me off and even though it's ignorant, the average MLB fan is going to look at it as a scar on Trout's career. 

Surround him with talent you rich asshole.

[UndertheHalo]

21 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

I hear your point but signing a high profile bat right now really strangles us for a few years. It limits our ability to contend for 2 years. You’re right, maybe they trade Simmons and that offsets the cost a bit, but the focus should only be on pitching. The Angels will likely make it with a WC spot for the next two years. Angels should focus the next two years on solidifying the rotation and making it a juggernaut. We’ve got the bats developing in the minors which should come together by 2022. Pair that with the rotation we’ve built and it’s show time for awhile. 

I do understand that we shouldn’t be waiting till then since we’re wasting Trout’s years. But there’s two factors that play into this. 

1: we want to contend for more than 1-2 years

2: when Trout signed his contract Eppler probably told him our window is dynasty team for at least 5-7 years. WITH chances of making a run a few years before and after. He could’ve said “in 2020-2021 we should be in the WC and push our way in the postseason. Come 2022-2028 we should be division winners and World Series favorites because of this this this this and this with money for this and this and this.” 

It’s been 10 years since we won a playoff game. I know we’ve been saying it, but this time it actually can be said: we’re finally back in it. 

I don’t know what they can or can’t afford.  We don’t know what Arte’s real limits are.  I can almost guarantee that this team won’t sniff a championship series in the next 2 or 3 years if they don’t get another legit bat with some pop.  That’s to go a long with the pitching.  

So either Arte is going to have spend.  Or the Angels player development is going to have to get a lot more like the Dodgers or Astros. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by UndertheHalo

[Tank]

35 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Won’t Rendon command Arenado money, since they are the two best 3B in MLB and pretty comparable?

Rendon as an Angel: 234/315/380 with 12 HR and 51 rbi

[Docwaukee]

This team is gonna end up with about 90 losses this year.  Is the expectation really that we're gonna go from 90 losses to on of the better teams in baseball in one off season?  

I think if they spent all of their available money on pitching, they could be a very good team but probably not one of the best teams.  Maybe, but I doubt it.  A lot would have to go right for that to happen and we know how that usually goes.  

My point is, don't expect a 30 win swing.  Could that type of swing happen over 2-3 years?  Sure.  

Also keep in mind that the FA market for position players isn't great this off season.  There aren't a ton of matches that make sense for the Angels.  It's basically Rendon, Grandal, Donaldson and a bunch of guys who are mostly filler.  

If Arte decided to go big ball and grab Cole, Rendon, and one more solid pitcher like Wheeler or Odorizzi then great.  I'm all for it.  But I wouldn't expect that.  

and Thaiss probably has some value in trade.  Not as a centerpiece for a strong starter, but certainly as one to get a solid back 3/4/5 ish type.  

Rendon could be one of those guys we jump in on at the end of the off season if we don't get the pitching we anticipated or if Eppler is able to strike a deal for a starter that includes Thaiss, one of  Rengifo/Fletcher, and a couple of guys from our top 30 like Soriano and Jackson.  If that could get us a #2 with plenty of control, then sure, but I don't think it will.  

[tdawg87]

4 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

This team is gonna end up with about 90 losses this year.  Is the expectation really that we're gonna go from 90 losses to on of the better teams in baseball in one off season?  

I think if they spent all of their available money on pitching, they could be a very good team but probably not one of the best teams.  Maybe, but I doubt it.  A lot would have to go right for that to happen and we know how that usually goes.  

My point is, don't expect a 30 win swing.  Could that type of swing happen over 2-3 years?  Sure.  

Also keep in mind that the FA market for position players isn't great this off season.  There aren't a ton of matches that make sense for the Angels.  It's basically Rendon, Grandal, Donaldson and a bunch of guys who are mostly filler.  

If Arte decided to go big ball and grab Cole, Rendon, and one more solid pitcher like Wheeler or Odorizzi then great.  I'm all for it.  But I wouldn't expect that.  

and Thaiss probably has some value in trade.  Not as a centerpiece for a strong starter, but certainly as one to get a solid back 3/4/5 ish type.  

Rendon could be one of those guys we jump in on at the end of the off season if we don't get the pitching we anticipated or if Eppler is able to strike a deal for a starter that includes Thaiss, one of  Rengifo/Fletcher, and a couple of guys from our top 30 like Soriano and Jackson.  If that could get us a #2 with plenty of control, then sure, but I don't think it will.  

One of the better teams? No. But a 90 win team? Yes.

Please don't punt the ball further down the field. This team should be a WC team in 2020. Anything less, barring ridiculous injuries, is a fail.

They can get there with pitching upgrades. 

I don't look at records in a vacuum. We aren't starting as a 90 loss team in 2020. We're a 90 loss team because of the hilarious injuries and non-hilarious death, not to mention a bullpen that has to pitch 5 innings every night.

[Docwaukee]

There is a way to increase your money available to spend this next off season and it's sort of the elephant in the room 

buy out the remainder of Pujols contract and spread out the cash over several years.  

He's got about 60m left over the next two years.  If you only pay him 5m each of the next two seasons and then the rest over the next 8 or 10 then you've got an additional 25m to spend in actual payroll in each of the next two seasons.  

Then you could do the following

Cole 6/168 (that's what I think he ends up getting) for an aav of 28m.  Pay him 25m in 2020
Wheeler 3/36.  10m in 2020
Rendon  5/125.  20m in 2020

That's 55m in additional payroll for 2020.  

[Docwaukee]

Just now, tdawg87 said:

One of the better teams? No. But a 90 win team? Yes.

Please don't punt the ball further down the field. This team should be a WC team in 2020. Anything less, barring ridiculous injuries, is a fail.

They can get there with pitching upgrades. 

I don't look at records in a vacuum. We aren't starting as a 90 loss team in 2020. We're a 90 loss team because of the hilarious injuries and non-hilarious death, not to mention a bullpen that has to pitch 5 innings every night.

I agree but I don't think we need another bat to be a WC contender next year and win 90 games.  A couple of pitcher makes us a good team.  Another bat could make us a great team but I just wouldn't expect it.  I am not punting by any stretch.  Only saying that if you agree not to look at records in a vacuum then you can look at one off season in a vacuum.  Improvements can also come in 2021.  We could certainly use another bat but I just wouldn't expect that this off season.  

[Erstad Grit]

51 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

There is a way to increase your money available to spend this next off season and it's sort of the elephant in the room 

buy out the remainder of Pujols contract and spread out the cash over several years.  

He's got about 60m left over the next two years.  If you only pay him 5m each of the next two seasons and then the rest over the next 8 or 10 then you've got an additional 25m to spend in actual payroll in each of the next two seasons.  

Then you could do the following

Cole 6/168 (that's what I think he ends up getting) for an aav of 28m.  Pay him 25m in 2020
Wheeler 3/36.  10m in 2020
Rendon  5/125.  20m in 2020

That's 55m in additional payroll for 2020.  

Those are literally the three players I want. 

We'd have to let Calhoun walk and have questions at catcher but I'm all for it. 

 

[tdawg87]

53 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

There is a way to increase your money available to spend this next off season and it's sort of the elephant in the room 

buy out the remainder of Pujols contract and spread out the cash over several years.  

He's got about 60m left over the next two years.  If you only pay him 5m each of the next two seasons and then the rest over the next 8 or 10 then you've got an additional 25m to spend in actual payroll in each of the next two seasons.  

Then you could do the following

Cole 6/168 (that's what I think he ends up getting) for an aav of 28m.  Pay him 25m in 2020
Wheeler 3/36.  10m in 2020
Rendon  5/125.  20m in 2020

That's 55m in additional payroll for 2020.  

[Jeff Fletcher]

4 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

If those juiced baseballs go away next season

The Angels pitching will be a lot better. 

Every team uses the same balls. 

[wopphil]

2 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

One of the better teams? No. But a 90 win team? Yes.

Please don't punt the ball further down the field. This team should be a WC team in 2020. Anything less, barring ridiculous injuries, is a fail.

They can get there with pitching upgrades. 

I don't look at records in a vacuum. We aren't starting as a 90 loss team in 2020. We're a 90 loss team because of the hilarious injuries and non-hilarious death, not to mention a bullpen that has to pitch 5 innings every night.

Great post. The time to compete is now. And I don't think a huge win swing is an impossibility. Just look at the Twins this year (on pace for a 22-game swing), or the 2014 Angels (same).  It's not hard for me to envision the team going from 90 losses to 90+ wins with a few good moves and some better luck.

[angelsnationtalk]

3 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t know what they can or can’t afford.  We don’t know what Arte’s real limits are.  I can almost guarantee that this team won’t sniff a championship series in the next 2 or 3 years if they don’t get another legit bat with some pop.  That’s to go a long with the pitching.  

So either Arte is going to have spend.  Or the Angels player development is going to have to get a lot more like the Dodgers or Astros. 

And they probably won’t. Specially with the Dodgers, Astros and Yankees being powerhouse teams. Which is why the Angels aren’t going to go all in for the next two years. It would be a waste if they did. Once they figure out pitching this offseason and next then they can look for that power bat for 2022 to put them over the edge.

The farm is getting stronger and the payroll is becoming more and more flexible. We maybe very well be in talks of being one of those dominant teams in 2022. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 hours ago, Dochalo said:

This team is gonna end up with about 90 losses this year.  Is the expectation really that we're gonna go from 90 losses to on of the better teams in baseball in one off season?  

I think if they spent all of their available money on pitching, they could be a very good team but probably not one of the best teams.  Maybe, but I doubt it.  A lot would have to go right for that to happen and we know how that usually goes.  

My point is, don't expect a 30 win swing.  Could that type of swing happen over 2-3 years?  Sure.  

Also keep in mind that the FA market for position players isn't great this off season.  There aren't a ton of matches that make sense for the Angels.  It's basically Rendon, Grandal, Donaldson and a bunch of guys who are mostly filler.  

If Arte decided to go big ball and grab Cole, Rendon, and one more solid pitcher like Wheeler or Odorizzi then great.  I'm all for it.  But I wouldn't expect that.  

and Thaiss probably has some value in trade.  Not as a centerpiece for a strong starter, but certainly as one to get a solid back 3/4/5 ish type.  

Rendon could be one of those guys we jump in on at the end of the off season if we don't get the pitching we anticipated or if Eppler is able to strike a deal for a starter that includes Thaiss, one of  Rengifo/Fletcher, and a couple of guys from our top 30 like Soriano and Jackson.  If that could get us a #2 with plenty of control, then sure, but I don't think it will.  

We could easily be 15 games better next year on good luck alone. Im not saying count on that, Im just saying you are probably putting a little too much stock in how this season has gone record wise. Replacing Cahil, Suarez and Harvey with Cole could be an 8 win upgrade on it's own. There are 10 pitchers on the roster this year who have put up negative war, another 6 at 0 - nearly 400 innings of below replacement level pitching, nearly 4 wins worth of garbage performance. Every pitcher we sign will be drawing innings from this pool. Sure a 30 game swing is far from likely, but the first half of them should not be difficult.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, RBM said:

Are you saying they get him to restructure his contract and keep playing or restructure it and retire?

I don't think he is going to retire. He has played well enough this year to want to come back next year, if only to pursue some personal career achievements. He is already the only player in MLB history to hit 650 HR's and 650 2B's, he could finish with 700 of each. He can also become the only player in the top 5 for HR's, 2B's and RBI's.

And I don't see him playing for $5 M the next two seasons either. Maybe there is a tax advantage to restructuring? Don't know.

However, if he falls apart or is dealing with injuries next year then I could see them working out a deal for 2021.

I think that after 2020 is more likely.  I agree he's been good enough to think he should still be around.  They do have an extra roster spot so it's likely they just keep him and let him platoon at 1b.  

[Docwaukee]

12 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

We could easily be 15 games better next year on good luck alone. Im not saying count on that, Im just saying you are probably putting a little too much stock in how this season has gone record wise. Replacing Cahil, Suarez and Harvey with Cole could be an 8 win upgrade on it's own. There are 10 pitchers on the roster this year who have put up negative war, another 6 at 0 - nearly 400 innings of below replacement level pitching, nearly 4 wins worth of garbage performance. Every pitcher we sign will be drawing innings from this pool. Sure a 30 game swing is far from likely, but the first half of them should not be difficult.

and that's what I'm saying.  we could make up 20 of those pretty easily but another 5-7 on top of that become a bit unrealistic.  A big bat could really help with that though if Arte was willing to pay for it.  I just don't think that's gonna happen all in one off season.  We'll get a couple of good pitchers, maybe a pen arm, and head to camp with the hope we can win 90 games.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

39 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

and that's what I'm saying.  we could make up 20 of those pretty easily but another 5-7 on top of that become a bit unrealistic.  A big bat could really help with that though if Arte was willing to pay for it.  I just don't think that's gonna happen all in one off season.  We'll get a couple of good pitchers, maybe a pen arm, and head to camp with the hope we can win 90 games.  

Like you said, it comes down to what Moreno is willing to spend. Angels catchers have cumulatively put up -0.7 war this year,  adding Grandal adds 5 or 6 wins. I think this is the time to strike, 2021 could see just as many steps back as we hope to take forward. I would definitely consider expending prospect capital in exchange for quality pitching if it meant blowing our wad on Cole and Grandal. How often can a team with a shot at contention realistically see a 14 win upgrade just from signing two players an offseason? 

[tdawg87]

IMO Arturo Moreno should stop caring about the payroll for a couple years and spend some fuckin money homes

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

IMO Arturo Moreno should stop caring about the payroll for a couple years and spend some fuckin money homes

this would be the off season to do it.  All the top free agents would help us big time.  

we need an NBA like off season where these guys get together and decide they're gonna go to one team.  

[tdawg87]

15 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

this would be the off season to do it.  All the top free agents would help us big time.  

we need an NBA like off season where these guys get together and decide they're gonna go to one team.  

Mike Trout sitting next to Cole, Grandal, and Rendon: "Not one, not two, not three"

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, cvdog said:

I want us to emphasize starting pitching like the Angels have never done before.  Spend every dime on FA starting pitchers.  I'm not expecting much from Upton, Pujols and maybe Calhoun. La Stella will be fine. Lock up that pitching. 

Upton will be fine, Albert is probably going to regress from this season and Kole won’t be back. 

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Baghdad Strad said:

Upton will be fine, Albert is probably going to regress from this season and Kole won’t be back. 

Not certain what the definition of fine is but, his last 30 games his OPS is sitting at .815, and that comes with a Babip about 60 points below his usual mark...   So, he's doing the usual streaky BS and would likely end up with his usual season if he had not missed half the year.