Pitching Injuries

[VariousCrap]

My Opinion:

First, I think dads (mostly them) and coaches have boys throwing way too much junk at a young age for Little League/Travel Ball/Etc.  I coach my 10 year old sons team in Little League and I'm on the board and I can't believe what these dads already have their sons trying to pitch.  It is ridiculous and it means nothing but wear and tear on their arms starting at a young age.  My assumption is that most dads of big league pitchers were the types of dads that had their kids throwing junk at a young age.  Second, I think the fact that MLB focuses on pitchers that throw upper 90's is a reason we are seeing this injury occurring so often.  That type of strain on the arm has to do a ton of damage.

[Blarg]

Back when I was in little league it was against the rules to throw breaking balls. Imagine there is only two pitches you could legally throw, your fastball and off speed but it better not have a sideways action.

My best friend didn't know how to throw a straight fastball. His grip was always slightly offset and his wrist just twisted every pitch. He would get warnings from the umpires every game and he'd just look at them, nod his head and then the next pitch was the same thing. They gave up on him because nothing he tried didn't spin and it wasn't as though it was unhittable, it floated in at a pretty slow speed. 

He went on the be a Veterinarian. A good choice, he never had a fastball. 

[VariousCrap]

Little League doesn't have that rule anymore, but I know I only tell my pitchers to throw their fastball and if they have one, a change up.  Otherwise, I tell them just try to locate their fastball in different areas of the strike zone to move the hitters eye level.  However, some dads tell me to let their sons throw their other pitches too.  I tell them it isn't needed at this age, but they don't care.  It is what they have been working on with them or a pitching coach.

A couple weeks ago, our team had a scrimmage game and we ended up not having enough players show up.  So we got a couple players from another team to join us.  One of those players is an 11 year old who is one of them best pitchers in his age range in our league.  My son is our catcher and had never caught this kid before.  This kid comes up to my son and says, "I got four pitches.  Fastball, curve, slider and change up."  I couldn't believe it.  He was a great pitcher for sure, but I couldn't help but think that kids arm will be toast before he graduates high school. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

At the youth level (LITTLE LEAGUE) when I coached 8-10-12. I advised the kids they could only throw Fastballs and circle change ups more of a palm ball for the little guys.... They got upset, their parents got upset..... Then I taught them how to make the ball move and cut. and that they actually had 8 pitches off a two seamer and 4 seamer grip  By using finger pressure and off-setting the ball....They loved it. I also advised them as they got older I would teach each of them the proper way to throw a slider or curveball. I did and they have done well. approx 12-15 of my pitchers are still in the game at the collegiate and professional level. 

When I got to travel ball and my organization. If I ever ran into a Dad Coached pitcher I would do a sit down (after I ran his kid through a few bullpens so I could watch his mechanics) and we would talk about what I saw and or suggestions. If I had a dad who didn't wish to sit down and discuss (They were asked to leave). I had one guy who I caught giving signs to his kid while he was pitching in a game and his son was throwing his pitches instead of the ones I was calling... I pulled both aside and we had a very short convo in between innings that if they wanted to play for me his son threw what I called. As I have set up my defense infield, outfield and have my catchers giving out signs to the infielders who are relaying stuff to the outfield on each pitch so they knew what to expect. And I wasn't going to have one of my catchers get hurt as the dad was calling a curve when we were expecting a fastball.....

FUN TIMES! 

And a few wonder why I have politely refrained to getting back into coaching... The parents are worse than the kids! 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

21 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

Little League doesn't have that rule anymore, but I know I only tell my pitchers to throw their fastball and if they have one, a change up.  Otherwise, I tell them just try to locate their fastball in different areas of the strike zone to move the hitters eye level.  However, some dads tell me to let their sons throw their other pitches too.  I tell them it isn't needed at this age, but they don't care.  It is what they have been working on with them or a pitching coach.

A couple weeks ago, our team had a scrimmage game and we ended up not having enough players show up.  So we got a couple players from another team to join us.  One of those players is an 11 year old who is one of them best pitchers in his age range in our league.  My son is our catcher and had never caught this kid before.  This kid comes up to my son and says, "I got four pitches.  Fastball, curve, slider and change up."  I couldn't believe it.  He was a great pitcher for sure, but I couldn't help but think that kids arm will be toast before he graduates high school. 

We had 3 that were done before they "Got to High School".... One played JUCO Ball as a Utility Infielder cause he could hit a little and ran well. 

[Angelsfan1984]

10 hours ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

It is insane that they had him throwing that hard that young. Joints have a finite life, and the more stress that is put on them, the sooner that they will be gone. This kid is probably looking at his arm being close to useless by the time that he is 45-50.

I threw mid 90s at 16. I blew my shoulder out before my elbow. Sometimes kids need to be protected from themselves. All I wanted to do was throw harder. It’s hard to get people with borderline self destructive competitive tendencies to see what they are doing to themselves 

[eligrba]

1 hour ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

At the youth level (LITTLE LEAGUE) when I coached 8-10-12. I advised the kids they could only throw Fastballs and circle change ups more of a palm ball for the little guys.... They got upset, their parents got upset..... Then I taught them how to make the ball move and cut. and that they actually had 8 pitches off a two seamer and 4 seamer grip  By using finger pressure and off-setting the ball....They loved it. I also advised them as they got older I would teach each of them the proper way to throw a slider or curveball. I did and they have done well. approx 12-15 of my pitchers are still in the game at the collegiate and professional level. 

When I got to travel ball and my organization. If I ever ran into a Dad Coached pitcher I would do a sit down (after I ran his kid through a few bullpens so I could watch his mechanics) and we would talk about what I saw and or suggestions. If I had a dad who didn't wish to sit down and discuss (They were asked to leave). I had one guy who I caught giving signs to his kid while he was pitching in a game and his son was throwing his pitches instead of the ones I was calling... I pulled both aside and we had a very short convo in between innings that if they wanted to play for me his son threw what I called. As I have set up my defense infield, outfield and have my catchers giving out signs to the infielders who are relaying stuff to the outfield on each pitch so they knew what to expect. And I wasn't going to have one of my catchers get hurt as the dad was calling a curve when we were expecting a fastball.....

FUN TIMES! 

And a few wonder why I have politely refrained to getting back into coaching... The parents are worse than the kids! 

How is a Dad to know what an awesome athlete he is if he can't obsessively coach his son?

[Tank]

5 hours ago, VariousCrap said:

My Opinion:

First, I think dads (mostly them) and coaches have boys throwing way too much junk at a young age for Little League/Travel Ball/Etc.  I coach my 10 year old sons team in Little League and I'm on the board and I can't believe what these dads already have their sons trying to pitch.  It is ridiculous and it means nothing but wear and tear on their arms starting at a young age.  My assumption is that most dads of big league pitchers were the types of dads that had their kids throwing junk at a young age.  Second, I think the fact that MLB focuses on pitchers that throw upper 90's is a reason we are seeing this injury occurring so often.  That type of strain on the arm has to do a ton of damage.

@Inside Pitch and i know a guy from the old AOL days who a lot of research on what he called pitcher abuse. he cited a lot of the things you've mentioned. coaches want to win while also showcasing these kids, and it leads them to let those kids pitch ridiculous amounts of innings and pitches. lots of kids have been ruined by this abuse. IP can talk a lot more intelligently about it than i can. it's a fascinating and alarming topic.

[Inside Pitch]

19 hours ago, Tank said:

@Inside Pitch and i know a guy from the old AOL days who a lot of research on what he called pitcher abuse. he cited a lot of the things you've mentioned. coaches want to win while also showcasing these kids, and it leads them to let those kids pitch ridiculous amounts of innings and pitches. lots of kids have been ruined by this abuse. IP can talk a lot more intelligently about it than i can. it's a fascinating and alarming topic.

I wish Joe posted here, dude can flat out write -- I remember at one time ESPN had offered him a gig but it wasn't even a third what he was making as a teacher so, he had to pass -- they missed out on someone truly gifted IMO.   His takes on how to make baseball more entertaining and the fictitious Richard Enispay stuff was always top shelf hilarity.   

Looking back, if Joe and I had the info available that is around these days I think that early stuff we wrote about pitcher abuse and "pitcher shock" may have been taken a lot more seriously.  We didn't have the access to data we do now so, we couldn't hit as wide a swath of players as we would have liked but in retrospect we were way ahead of the curve when it came to usage and the impact it had on arms.  Joe really focused on how players were used at the prep level and obviously I was all over the college usage due to my experiences there.    But across the board everything we talked about has become pretty much accepted across baseball.

And to think that it was Stephen Smith's homerism that initially spurred me to first put those thoughts out on the web...   It was all that research looking at players across baseball from the 50s up that made me both rip the Angels for how they were treating their minor league arms (in those days), and feel pretty comfortable absolving them of any real wrong-doing during the spate of TJ injuries in recent years.

Sucks we never thought to keep those posts.  If only @Lou has access to the mid 90s AOL message boards -- I bet you he would agree..

[Blarg]

We'd have to read them all in courier or some lame ass font. 

[Tank]

43 minutes ago, Blarg said:

We'd have to read them all in courier or some lame ass font. 

It'd be worth it, trust me.

I'd also recommend you get a new mullet to really enjoy the whole experience as originally intended.

[Tank]

And as IP said, Joe was an amazing writer. I didn't understand much of what he wrote at first - it was like inviting a second grader to a university level applied economics class. But he was usually patient with me and I learned a TON from him and IP. Amongst other things, those old aol boards were the first place I ever heard of OBP, SLG, and OPS. It was revolutionary.

we also used to have a group of us, including Brian, that would get together for taco Tuesdays during the summer before heading over to the game. You don't know fun until you see Brian trying squeeze into my 2 year olds' baby seat to ride over to the Big A parking lot.

[Erstad Grit]

Amount of injuries here last two years warrants one to ask what is going on.

I really don't think it's Angels lacking in training, health, etc.

Angels seem to like taking risks on pitchers with injury pasts. Maybe they view them like lotto tickets. Hoping the score big. Meyer is a good example. 

 

[Inside Pitch]

26 minutes ago, Tank said:

And as IP said, Joe was an amazing writer. I didn't understand much of what he wrote at first - it was like inviting a second grader to a university level applied economics class. But he was usually patient with me and I learned a TON from him and IP. Amongst other things, those old aol boards were the first place I ever heard of OBP, SLG, and OPS. It was revolutionary.

we also used to have a group of us, including Brian, that would get together for taco Tuesdays during the summer before heading over to the game. You don't know fun until you see Brian trying squeeze into my 2 year olds' baby seat to ride over to the Big A parking lot.

Joe can write....  Be it baseball or how to clean a fish tank, he made whatever he wrote about a fun ride..     The Acapulco near the Pond/Big A, probably reconsidered its Taco Tuesday after a few visits.   Liquored up Joe at The Catch after games was pure comedy too.  He had some running thing with Jim Edmonds that was hilarious...

[Stradling]

Invite this guy to come post here.  

[Tank]

57 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Invite this guy to come post here.  

Would love to. Would be interesting to see him interact with some of the posters here. 

[Inside Pitch]

55 minutes ago, Tank said:

Would love to. Would be interesting to see him interact with some of the posters here. 

[Blarg]

Now you've done it and triggered a bunch of anti gun members on the board. 

[Angel Oracle]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 8:56 PM, Blarg said:

The throw as hard as you can until you're ennifective is part of the problem. These guys, after a couple of warm up pitches start the game trying to announce their presence with authority, to steal a line from Bull Durham. 

Ryan used to start the game in the low 90's and round about the 6th the real heat started coming. He may have cut one or two loose earlier to keep them honest but his highest velocity came in the final innings not first. 

One of the reasons he could consistently go long is he wasn't physically spent in 80 pitches. He ramped up and was able to maintain for 8 or more innings. 

But the current philosophy is pound them hard and let bullpen pitchers try and fill in four innings of work. It's pretty ass backwards. 

Verlander also subscribes to this, and voila, a lack of injury history even at age 35.  

[T.G.]

Ultimately, they will attribute the elbow issues with the rise in popularity of X-Box. 

Congress will jump all over this.  There will be hearings. 

I can see Nate Eovaldi shaking his finger at Congress... "I did not play X-Box the day before or the day of any games."

[VariousCrap]

On 11/26/2018 at 10:11 PM, Tank said:

@Inside Pitch and i know a guy from the old AOL days who a lot of research on what he called pitcher abuse. he cited a lot of the things you've mentioned. coaches want to win while also showcasing these kids, and it leads them to let those kids pitch ridiculous amounts of innings and pitches. lots of kids have been ruined by this abuse. IP can talk a lot more intelligently about it than i can. it's a fascinating and alarming topic.

 

I know Little League has pitch limits for various ages and required days off from pitching for different amounts of pitches thrown in a game.  I don't know if that is the case in Travel Ball, Pony and others.  If some of these leagues don't have those limits, perhaps they should be forced to do so.

[T.G.]

@BackUpTheTruck I found video of you from your pitching days...

 

[BackUpTheTruck]

2 minutes ago, True Grich said:

@BackUpTheTruck I found video of you from your pitching days...

 

That made me laugh . . .

I did have control problems though.

However, I once struck out four batters in one inning. Many runs were scored that inning, and I single handedly lost the game. 

Some defense would have been nice, but I don't like to point fingers.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

5 hours ago, BackUpTheTruck said:

When I was a pitcher, I was taught that elbow problems are caused when the elbow drops below the shoulder during the throwing motion, and shoulder problems are cause when the elbow comes through above the shoulder.

I speculate that the epidemic of Tommy John surgeries may be correlated to the growing preference of pitchers to throw fastballs high in the strike zone.

Speaking from experience, when the elbow dips, fastballs miss high and your elbow gets sore. 

There is also a trend for pitchers to use their legs more to generate velocity, resulting in longer strides. Speaking from experience, this too can cause the elbow to drop, and for fastballs to miss high, causing elbow pain.

They do not want real world experience and knowledge around here it would negate all of the statistical data they've come up with.

 

Just reply the following..... Great Read, Very informative, Keep up the Great work~