Mike Scioscia Would Like to Continue Managing

[Stradling]

20 minutes ago, JarsOfClay said:

You said yourself he was getting into the HOF based on his accomplishments, now you're saying he wasn't that important. So which is it?

And it's true the BBWA doesn't vote on managers. The Veterans Committe does which consists of HOF players who have actually played the game and would know if a manager "mattered" or not.

Managers are voted in by guys like Hank Aaron, Al Kaline, Ralph Kiner, Juan Marichal, Brooks Robinson, Rod Carew, Don Sutton, as well as former GM's, Presidents, and Sportswriters.

I guess we will see if he gets in.  Jars it goes back to my last post.  When I read something that changes my opinion then I change my opinion.   

[yk9001]

2 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

^^^^^ bingo

The game changes. 

Like doc said, stolen bases used to be huge. Not as big of a deal anymore. Bullpens used to be a closer, the rest an afterthought. Not anymore.

Batting average, runs and rbi used to be the measuring stick. Not anymore.

Spring training used to be the time to get back into shape. Not anymore. Etc etc.

Catcher's ERA used to be a thing with certain managers.

Also, evaluating a catcher's ability to squat.  That was a big thing with certain managers.

Some managers employed batting coaches who think that walks are a false stat.

[ten ocho recon scout]

13 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

Catcher's ERA used to be a thing with certain managers.

Also, evaluating a catcher's ability to squat.  That was a big thing with certain managers.

Some managers employed batting coaches who think that walks are a false stat.

Mathis is still employed...and is the darling of every pitching coach in mlb. Trust me on that one..he'll have a job until his body wears out, or doesnt feel like playing anymore.

And as much as we rag on hatcher, he was also the hitting coach for the best run of offense this team has ever had.

The counter to that is Hatcher was blessed with having good players. He didnt make vlad hit. Napoli, all the 2004 guys, 2008 guys etc. But with that said, sosh hasnt had trams like that since 2012, either.

Its not like replacing hatcher has booster our offense. Much like sosh's replacement wont boost our pitching.

 

[Troll Daddy]

2 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

^^^^^ bingo

The game changes. 

Like doc said, stolen bases used to be huge. Not as big of a deal anymore. Bullpens used to be a closer, the rest an afterthought. Not anymore.

Batting average, runs and rbi used to be the measuring stick. Not anymore.

Spring training used to be the time to get back into shape. Not anymore. Etc etc.

I wouldn’t be to quick to dispel any of those attributes. 

[Angel Oracle]

Would Scioscia's solid catching career plus solid managing career be enough ultimately to get into the HOF?  

He is tied with LaRussa for 26th all time in winning % as a manager (.538).   The two downers are 1) having just one post-season appearance since 2010, and 2) the meh post-season record (5-6 in post-season series, but just 2-6 after 2002).   After 2002, he's not been much more successful in the post-season than Dusty Baker has been. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

Managers/head coaches do play an important role in motivating their teams across all sports. Scioscia doesn't do that anymore based on what I have seen in the dugout the past decade. Remember when he used to be full of emotion and get pissed off on a regular basis? We haven't seen that in 10 years. He doesn't care, it's time for him to GTFO.

What is it you want to see?

which other managers can you see “motivating” their players in the dugout?

[ten ocho recon scout]

6 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Would Scioscia's solid catching career plus solid managing career be enough ultimately to get into the HOF?  

He is tied with LaRussa for 26th all time in winning % as a manager (.538).   The two downers are 1) having just one post-season appearance since 2010, and 2) the meh post-season record (5-6 in post-season series, but just 2-6 after 2002).   After 2002, he's not been much more successful in the post-season than Dusty Baker has been. 

I think hes in for sure. Not because im a fan, but i think at this point hes in.

[Jeff Fletcher]

10 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

I want to see 2000-2009 Scioscia.

Enlighten me. Tell me what he did in those years you so convienently picked. 

[Angelsfan1984]

16 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Enlighten me. Tell me what he did in those years you so convienently picked. 

My guess is that those were the playoff years including the world series win, with essentially similar ball clubs. 1 super star with solid players sprinkled in. The only difference I can see is the fact that they had 9th inning guys during that time span.

[kevinb]

5 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

My guess is that those were the playoff years including the world series win, with essentially similar ball clubs. 1 super star with solid players sprinkled in. The only difference I can see is the fact that they had 9th inning guys during that time span.

This team does not have 8 other solid guys in the line up. Not even remotely close. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

Just now, Vladdylonglegs said:

Re-read my original post.

I read it. You said he got pissed more and made a big scene. 

1. I doubt that’s true beyond the difference between there being no replay back then so all managers argued with umpires more. 

2. That has zero to do with motivating players. 

3. If, at the major league level, players need to be motivated by anyone but their own desire to win and excel, you have the wrong players. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

29 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Enlighten me. Tell me what he did in those years you so convienently picked. 

 

[T.G.]

I believe managers; like great CEO's, can impact the culture of the team or organization's they serve.  I believe Scioscia's greatest contribution to the Angels was the way he and Bill Stoneman transformed the Angels into an organization that believed it could win it all.  He instituted a philosophy and a style of play that helped them be successful for a number of years.  Things like putting pressure on the defense by being aggressive on the bases.  Putting the ball in play, etc.  Teams have different cultures, different philosophies on how to play the game and go about their business.  Much was made about the "Cardinal way" a few years ago.  I think Scioscia developed a specific way he wanted the Angels to play for many years.  That came into conflict with Jerry Dipoto.  It may still be in flux with Billy Eppler (I don't know). 

While I agree that managers might not have a big impact on the day to day actions of their team - I do believe they can set a tone and establish expectations.  They also play in a role in the health and chemistry of a club house.  They have to be good communicators and have the ability to lead a a team.  Scioscia's leadership skills were never more evident then when Nick Adenhart passed away.  He guided that team through a tough season and always made sure no one made Nick's death about the Angels. It was always about Nick and his family.

Managers can have an impact.  They most definitely can.  Does that translate into wins and losses on a daily basis?  I don't know. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

17 minutes ago, True Grich said:

I believe managers; like great CEO's, can impact the culture of the team or organization's they serve.  I believe Scioscia's greatest contribution to the Angels was the way he and Bill Stoneman transformed the Angels into an organization that believed it could win it all.  He instituted a philosophy and a style of play that helped them be successful for a number of years.  Things like putting pressure on the defense by being aggressive on the bases.  Putting the ball in play, etc.  Teams have different cultures, different philosophies on how to play the game and go about their business.  Much was made about the "Cardinal way" a few years ago.  I think Scioscia developed a specific way he wanted the Angels to play for many years.  That came into conflict with Jerry Dipoto.  It may still be in flux with Billy Eppler (I don't know). 

While I agree that managers might not have a big impact on the day to day actions of their team - I do believe they can set a tone and establish expectations.  They also play in a role in the health and chemistry of a club house.  They have to be good communicators and have the ability to lead a a team.  Scioscia's leadership skills were never more evident then when Nick Adenhart passed away.  He guided that team through a tough season and always made sure no one made Nick's death about the Angels. It was always about Nick and his family.

Managers can have an impact.  They most definitely can.  Does that translate into wins and losses on a daily basis?  I don't know. 

I believe all this is true about managers creating an atmosphere and setting a tone. 

I don’t believe it has much of an impact on winning. And I don’t believe it can be judged from anything you see on the field or on TV. 

[Angelsfan1984]

44 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

This team does not have 8 other solid guys in the line up. Not even remotely close. 

They did before the injuries...

You going to tell me that a side by side comparison of the teams from the 2000's were by far superior to the team they started with this year? Theres a bigger issue if players of this caliber aren't producing like they should. Sometimes you create your own luck and I find it extremely hard to believe that the Angels had the worst luck in the league 4 years in a row.

C- Molina vs Maldonado

1B-Spezio vs Pujols

2B- Kennedy vs Kinsler

SS-Eckstein vs Simmons

3B- Glaus vs Cozart

LF-Anderson vs Upton

CF-Trout vs Erstad

RF-Salmon vs Calhoun

DH-Brad Fulmer vs Ohtani

 

[yk9001]

Now do the bullpen.

[Stradling]

17 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

They did before the injuries...

You going to tell me that a side by side comparison of the teams from the 2000's were by far superior to the team they started with this year? Theres a bigger issue if players of this caliber aren't producing like they should. Sometimes you create your own luck and I find it extremely hard to believe that the Angels had the worst luck in the league 4 years in a row.

C- Molina vs Maldonado

1B-Spezio vs Pujols

2B- Kennedy vs Kinsler

SS-Eckstein vs Simmons

3B- Glaus vs Cozart

LF-Anderson vs Upton

CF-Trout vs Erstad

RF-Salmon vs Calhoun

DH-Brad Fulmer vs Ohtani

 

And if you value WAR then 2002 destroys 2018.  Every one you listed from 2002 except for Molina had a 2.5 or higher WAR.  They outranked their 2018 counterpart at every single position except for CF and SS and at SS it was close, 6.0 to 5.3.  Even Fulmer outranks Ohtani at DH.  If you were to subtract the highest and lowest from each time then it would be even further evidence that 2002 was a MUCH better team.  Trout is 10 wins of the 26.6 WAR for 2018, then we have a 6 WAR and a 3.7 WAR player.  2002 had 6 players that were above a 4, and this years team has two.  It isn’t really close.  One had a great collection of talent and the other one has two great and two really good players.

[kevinb]

54 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

They did before the injuries...

You going to tell me that a side by side comparison of the teams from the 2000's were by far superior to the team they started with this year? Theres a bigger issue if players of this caliber aren't producing like they should. Sometimes you create your own luck and I find it extremely hard to believe that the Angels had the worst luck in the league 4 years in a row.

C- Molina vs Maldonado

1B-Spezio vs Pujols

2B- Kennedy vs Kinsler

SS-Eckstein vs Simmons

3B- Glaus vs Cozart

LF-Anderson vs Upton

CF-Trout vs Erstad

RF-Salmon vs Calhoun

DH-Brad Fulmer vs Ohtani

 

Lets go by this

Molina>

Spezio>

Kennedy>

Simmons>

Glaus>

Upton>

Trout>

Salmon>

Ohtani>

So Simmons, Upton barely, Trout, and Ohtani. 

[mtangelsfan]

I think I will go with WAR

[m0nkey]

What's it good for?

[Pancake Bear]

1 hour ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

They did before the injuries...

You going to tell me that a side by side comparison of the teams from the 2000's were by far superior to the team they started with this year? Theres a bigger issue if players of this caliber aren't producing like they should. Sometimes you create your own luck and I find it extremely hard to believe that the Angels had the worst luck in the league 4 years in a row.

C- Molina vs Maldonado

1B-Spezio vs Pujols

2B- Kennedy vs Kinsler

SS-Eckstein vs Simmons

3B- Glaus vs Cozart

LF-Anderson vs Upton

CF-Trout vs Erstad

RF-Salmon vs Calhoun

DH-Brad Fulmer vs Ohtani

 

1B is a huge black hole at the moment. Pujols was yet again a negative on a position that Spezio filled pretty solidly in '02.

2B was actually just fine this year.

SS - where Eck was 2002's best player - is actually improved by Simmons (this year, anyway).

3B also is a gigantic mess (26th overall this season - I'm surprise it was that good).

Catcher is difficult to compare for rather obvious reasons . 

Outfield: Upton has been up and down, but he's fine for the moment. Calhoun's job is far from safe this offseason and into Spring Training. Amazingly, the 2018 outfield is still better than 2002's, just because of Trout. Even though Upton is worse than all three guys in '02 and Calhoun is barely positive on WAR. 

DH: Fullmer basically tied Ohtani's WAR, but Ohtani played around half a season.

Pitching is also a huge difference: The '02 staff was remarkably healthy. Compare just the number of pitchers who started and appeared out of the bullpen both years. It's crazy. 

 

So, clearly, 1B, 3B  and RF need to be better. With Adell, RF is probably fine (might want to grab a 1yr placeholder, depending how you feel about Calhoun). If Cozart rebounds or Ward can get it together, 2B/3B might be good enough to not be a gigantic weight. Ohtani put up crazy numbers in a short time at DH. All season? That position is set. Catcher, you probably want a veteran brought in, even if you think one of Briceno/Arcia/Hudson. Whichever of those three is still on the team can serve as backup (or lead, depending how things work out, I guess). 

On the whole, 2002 was better, but not so much that a full season from Ohtani and some dead weight being excised couldn't put us in the same neighborhood even without a substantial move. 

Pitching: Based on how things went this year, our biggest need is not in the pen, it's less innings for the pen. 2002's pen put up less than 450 innings. 2018? Over 600 (not sure how that counts relievers who started, etc). Heaney and Skaggs should be set for 2018. Pena/Barria/Shoe will be in the mix. There's a few other guys that can fill innings in a pinch, but really, we need at least one reliable arm badly. That is a must. Could we use a Kimbel or some other top reliever? Sure. Who couldn't? But is it a need? Probably not in 2019

Basically, we need a top SP - not necessarily a deGrom, but even a Corbin or Keuchel ought to make the team substantially better. After that? We'll probably bring in a veteran catcher, but I'm not sure we *must* make any other moves. A legit closer type and a solid 3B(/1B) would help, but it isn't a must.

A lot just comes down to something the 2002 team had: Durability in the pitching staff.

[Troll Daddy]

To be fair ... he didn’t say where 

[Angel Oracle]

2 hours ago, True Grich said:

I believe managers; like great CEO's, can impact the culture of the team or organization's they serve.  I believe Scioscia's greatest contribution to the Angels was the way he and Bill Stoneman transformed the Angels into an organization that believed it could win it all.  He instituted a philosophy and a style of play that helped them be successful for a number of years.  Things like putting pressure on the defense by being aggressive on the bases.  Putting the ball in play, etc.  Teams have different cultures, different philosophies on how to play the game and go about their business.  Much was made about the "Cardinal way" a few years ago.  I think Scioscia developed a specific way he wanted the Angels to play for many years.  That came into conflict with Jerry Dipoto.  It may still be in flux with Billy Eppler (I don't know). 

While I agree that managers might not have a big impact on the day to day actions of their team - I do believe they can set a tone and establish expectations.  They also play in a role in the health and chemistry of a club house.  They have to be good communicators and have the ability to lead a a team.  Scioscia's leadership skills were never more evident then when Nick Adenhart passed away.  He guided that team through a tough season and always made sure no one made Nick's death about the Angels. It was always about Nick and his family.

Managers can have an impact.  They most definitely can.  Does that translate into wins and losses on a daily basis?  I don't know. 

Eppler does seem to be looking as well for players in the draft and Latin America who can do the little things too.   Marsh, Adell, Adams, and Knowles are all athletic enough.

[eligrba]

People are reading too much into Mike's comments.  How would anyone answer the question whether they wanted to keep doing their job knowing that the response would be publicly shared? Scioscia is a master matador with potentially distracting questions. 

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

They did before the injuries...

You going to tell me that a side by side comparison of the teams from the 2000's were by far superior to the team they started with this year? Theres a bigger issue if players of this caliber aren't producing like they should. Sometimes you create your own luck and I find it extremely hard to believe that the Angels had the worst luck in the league 4 years in a row.

C- Molina vs Maldonado

1B-Spezio vs Pujols

2B- Kennedy vs Kinsler

SS-Eckstein vs Simmons

3B- Glaus vs Cozart

LF-Anderson vs Upton

CF-Trout vs Erstad

RF-Salmon vs Calhoun

DH-Brad Fulmer vs Ohtani

Tell you what -- that 2002 team had a team ERA+ of 120..  Meaning the pitching staff as a group was 20% better than the league average  -- that alone puts the 2002 head and shoulders above the 2018 team but then consider this.   

And while you are trying to argue the lineups were similarly talented -- the numbers dont bear that out -- particularly the bench...   Consider this..  the quartet of Palmiero, Gil, Wooten and Ochoa all posted OPS+ figures better than David Fletcher's 89, ranging from a low of 94 to a high of 125.   Those guys were back ups and yet they posted OPS+ better than Kinsler, AL, Cozard, Calhou. and Erstad.   The lone spots where the 2002 Angels had below league average performance came at C and CF... and in Estad's case there isnt anyone alive that would have preferred a better bat in CF over Erstad's glove -- the dude was a witch out there.   

Seriously -- outside of CF, SS, and DH the 2002 shits all over the 18 team.  Trout is a massive win for the Angels performance wise but Maldonado was 29% below the league average offensively.   Meanwhile at DH, Ohtani's 150 OPS+ easily beats Fullmer, but in Fullmer you still had a guy that was 33% above the league average.      

Really the only position where there was equitable talent was LF where Upton and GA were within 3 points of each other OPS+ wise.

As far as it being a case of producing your own luck..   If the coaching is why the 2018 team didnt do better, I'd love for you to explain how Kinsler's OPS+ went from 95 with the Angels to 59 in Boston.