Without Pujols

[UndertheHalo]

31 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

If Albert has a healthy offseason and comes into next year fresh, rested and fully healthy, I am sure he will return to being a legit MOTO hitter.  After all, he is Albert Pujols.

I think we can all fully anticipate his 2019 spring training arrival in the best shape of his life. 

[tomsred]

I  have a little different take on Pujols.  First of all, I don't necessarily think most fans want Albert to retire yet.  Most fans on this message board do want him to retire now, but that is not necessarily an indication of all fans.  Secondly, I think the problem is that we have two $25M+ players when one would be much better.  Given that Pujols is the weaker of the two, he becomes the loser.  There is a real argument for having no players over $20M, it's promotes greater flexibility in roster composition.  It's probably a major reason a team like Oakland can be successful with a very limited salary total, play them while they are hot, but don't hold on to a player once developed because the salary will outstrips his worth.  This is because players after a while, if successful, don't get paid for what they are doing now (like Pujols), but part of their salary is what they did in past years and sometimes many years ago.  The fans really do work against this because they are very emotional about players.  

What I like about Eppler, and what many of you like as well, is the fact that he is building up the farm, and creating diversity.  Ultimately it's the only way to win, and to create flexibility.  Eppler is really stuck with both Pujols and Trout for different reasons.  Pujols because someone nailed down a silly contract many years ago, and Trout because he takes away roster flexibility to some degree as well.  Obviously the good news on Trout is that his trend is still up, but at some point he will fall into Pujols territory when he starts getting paid for what he has done in the past.  Many of you want to lock him up for life, that is good emotionally, but it may be a success trap for the team.  Player performance is so unpredictable anymore there is a good argument for reducing salaries and long term commitments, and thereby limiting your options for improvement.  In the case of the Angels, health issues have really killed things as well.

We have two big problems at hand.  The first is the replacement of Pujols, and the second is the length and depth of any future contract with Trout.  With regard to Pujols, there is no ready replacement in the system at the moment.  We need someone to push him out, even at the cost of writing off some of his contract.  There is just no way to ditch future salary commitments, short of a player who does something really evil (and that is not Albert).  The second question is whether to take on Trout for life, or sell high.  The rest of the roster is fixable in the short term, but their are never any guarantees on health or player performance in any given year.

[Stradling]

55 minutes ago, floplag said:

out of 25 qualified 1B, Pujols is currently 13th per WAR.  Including non qualified he is 19th out of 40. 
Im not going ot argue WAR we all know it isnt perfect, but it is the defacto standard so... 
He is ahead of guys like Anthony Rizzo, Jose Abreu, Carlos Santana, and Miguel Cabrera and in the same range as guys like Gurriel, Alonzo, and Moreland.  Plus hes playing a much improved defensive role this year.
If you take the contract out of it, hes doesnt suck.  Yes, hes over payed, but hes right in the middle of the pack according to measurable stats.  
We could maybe stop blaming him for the teams issues, hes not one of them aside from the contract.
 

This surprises me a little.  So he’s the exact definition of average for first baseman.   I assumed his inability to run would hit his ranking a bit coupled with his low OBP.  

[beatlesrule]

40 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

If Albert has a healthy offseason and comes into next year fresh, rested and fully healthy, I am sure he will return to being a legit MOTO hitter.  After all, he is Albert Pujols.

He will definitely remind you.

[Angel Oracle]

6 minutes ago, tomsred said:

I  have a little different take on Pujols.  First of all, I don't necessarily think most fans want Albert to retire yet.  Most fans on this message board do want him to retire now, but that is not necessarily an indication of all fans.  Secondly, I think the problem is that we have two $25M+ players when one would be much better.  Given that Pujols is the weaker of the two, he becomes the loser.  There is a real argument for having no players over $20M, it's promotes greater flexibility in roster composition.  It's probably a major reason a team like Oakland can be successful with a very limited salary total, play them while they are hot, but don't hold on to a player once developed because the salary will outstrips his worth.  This is because players after a while, if successful, don't get paid for what they are doing now (like Pujols), but part of their salary is what they did in past years and sometimes many years ago.  The fans really do work against this because they are very emotional about players.  

What I like about Eppler, and what many of you like as well, is the fact that he is building up the farm, and creating diversity.  Ultimately it's the only way to win, and to create flexibility.  Eppler is really stuck with both Pujols and Trout for different reasons.  Pujols because someone nailed down a silly contract many years ago, and Trout because he takes away roster flexibility to some degree as well.  Obviously the good news on Trout is that his trend is still up, but at some point he will fall into Pujols territory when he starts getting paid for what he has done in the past.  Many of you want to lock him up for life, that is good emotionally, but it may be a success trap for the team.  Player performance is so unpredictable anymore there is a good argument for reducing salaries and long term commitments, and thereby limiting your options for improvement.  In the case of the Angels, health issues have really killed things as well.

We have two big problems at hand.  The first is the replacement of Pujols, and the second is the length and depth of any future contract with Trout.  With regard to Pujols, there is no ready replacement in the system at the moment.  We need someone to push him out, even at the cost of writing off some of his contract.  There is just no way to ditch future salary commitments, short of a player who does something really evil (and that is not Albert).  The second question is whether to take on Trout for life, or sell high.  The rest of the roster is fixable in the short term, but their are never any guarantees on health or player performance in any given year.

This is a solid take regarding Trout.    By after the 2020 season, Adell and Marsh should be firmly settled in here, and Adams (Cain ceiling comp) and Knowles (ceiling comp ?) may only be a year away themselves.     Do they pay Trout $40 million per season from 2021 to say 2028, or do they save that money to keep Simba and have money left over to keep 1-2 other key FA's?    Or do they do that contract, but with an opt-out after 2 years, which gives Adams/Knowles extra time to develop?

[tomsred]

35 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

This is a solid take regarding Trout.    By after the 2020 season, Adell and Marsh should be firmly settled in here, and Adams (Cain ceiling comp) and Knowles (ceiling comp ?) may only be a year away themselves.     Do they pay Trout $40 million per season from 2021 to say 2028, or do they save that money to keep Simba and have money left over to keep 1-2 other key FA's?    Or do they do that contract, but with an opt-out after 2 years, which gives Adams/Knowles extra time to develop?

Yes, there may be a creative way to do the contract.  I will leave that to the experts.  It will be very hard to give up Trout in a trade, it would be another fan revolt like the franchise team name.  I think ultimately that will be Trout's choice.  There is no way to make him stay.

[floplag]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

This surprises me a little.  So he’s the exact definition of average for first baseman.   I assumed his inability to run would hit his ranking a bit coupled with his low OBP.  

To be honest, it did me to, thats why i looked it up i expected worse.  The contract sucks, but the on field performance, at least as of right now, doesnt.  

[tomsred]

1 hour ago, floplag said:

out of 25 qualified 1B, Pujols is currently 13th per WAR.  Including non qualified he is 19th out of 40. 
Im not going ot argue WAR we all know it isnt perfect, but it is the defacto standard so... 
He is ahead of guys like Anthony Rizzo, Jose Abreu, Carlos Santana, and Miguel Cabrera and in the same range as guys like Gurriel, Alonzo, and Moreland.  Plus hes playing a much improved defensive role this year.
If you take the contract out of it, hes doesnt suck.  Yes, hes over payed, but hes right in the middle of the pack according to measurable stats.  
We could maybe stop blaming him for the teams issues, hes not one of them aside from the contract.
 

I am not surprised about this.  For fans here, it's all about the contract, the fact that his prime was in St. Louis, the fact that he is an older player and gets injuries, and that he's lost speed.  If you want to sign mature superstars on your team, you have to pay a heavy price and then face the eventual decline while they play out their contract.  Actually we don't have a better defensive or offensive first baseman anywhere in our system.  CJ Cron would have been the guy to push Pujols some, but the organization gave up on him, and so did many, many fans.

I could think of many reasons to like Pujols, and many fans do.  His dedication to the game, his mentoring of younger players (especially Trout), playing through substantial injuries, his performance given his age, his off the field support of the organization and charities.  Other fans want to see him as self serving, just chasing records, leeching money from the organization, and a performance embarrassment generally.  However you see it, to blame him for the team's failures is silly.  No one player can carry that load, and no one player can make a difference between winning and losing, even Trout in his prime.

[floplag]

3 minutes ago, tomsred said:

I am not surprised about this.  For fans here, it's all about the contract, the fact that his prime was in St. Louis, the fact that he is an older player and gets injuries, and that he's lost speed.  If you want to sign mature superstars on your team, you have to pay a heavy price and then face the eventual decline while they play out their contract.  Actually we don't have a better defensive or offensive first baseman anywhere in our system.  CJ Cron would have been the guy to push Pujols some, but the organization gave up on him, and so did many, many fans.

I could think of many reasons to like Pujols, and many fans do.  His dedication to the game, his mentoring of younger players (especially Trout), playing through substantial injuries, his performance given his age, his off the field support of the organization and charities.  Other fans want to see him as self serving, just chasing records, leeching money from the organization, and a performance embarrassment generally.  However you see it, to blame him for the team's failures is silly.  No one player can carry that load, and no one player can make a difference between winning and losing, even Trout in his prime.

i was a little, thats a pretty big turn around from last year, which is think is stuck in some people heads.   Not too many people especially at his gae turn in a +2 WAR upgrade from one year to the next. 

[tomsred]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

This surprises me a little.  So he’s the exact definition of average for first baseman.   I assumed his inability to run would hit his ranking a bit coupled with his low OBP.  

I think most first baseman can't run very well.  They are usually above average in size and weight, that is why they are playing first base, not in the outfield, or 2B, or SS.  If Pujols were 10 years younger, it would make quite a difference.  Let me know when he figures out how to reverse his age, I want some of that.  I don't run very well either.

[totdprods]

12 minutes ago, floplag said:

Not too many people especially at his gae turn in a +2 WAR upgrade from one year to the next. 

A lot of this is simply because he's playing decent defense instead of DH, but I agree.

Not too many 38 year old's go from -2 WAR to +1-2 WAR. Could be almost a +4 swing by year's end if he keeps hitting at this .750-.800 clip he's maintained for the last two months. 

At this rate, he's no doubt the de facto starting 1B (and some DH) again next year. Ideally he gets some more offensive help around him. I think he'll go one more year following that in a PH/DH role with decreasing playing time as better players truly start pushing him out like @tomsred said and then may consider retiring a year early.

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 hours ago, floplag said:

out of 25 qualified 1B, Pujols is currently 13th per WAR.  Including non qualified he is 19th out of 40. 
Im not going ot argue WAR we all know it isnt perfect, but it is the defacto standard so... 
He is ahead of guys like Anthony Rizzo, Jose Abreu, Carlos Santana, and Miguel Cabrera and in the same range as guys like Gurriel, Alonzo, and Moreland.  Plus hes playing a much improved defensive role this year.
If you take the contract out of it, hes doesnt suck.  Yes, hes over payed, but hes right in the middle of the pack according to measurable stats.  
We could maybe stop blaming him for the teams issues, hes not one of them aside from the contract.
 

That's actually really surprising. Perhaps I haven't been paying close enough attention recently.

[Blarg]

The Orioles trot out Chris Davis and we think Pujols is a roster burden. They still owe him $90 million over the next four years. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

10 minutes ago, Blarg said:

The Orioles trot out Chris Davis and we think Pujols is a roster burden. They still owe him $90 million over the next four years. 

Well that was a brain fart from day one. Most people here loved the Pujols contract the day it was signed.

[gurn67]

4 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Would his hitting improve in 2019 and 2020, if he became a 120 games max per season guy?   Then he isn't wearing down so much later on in the season?  

Notice that I didn't say 2021, as I can't see him playing by then (only $30 million still owed him for 2021).     

Admittedly, it is a big and pleasant surprise to see the .900+ OPS for July.   That's been too far and few in between.   Maybe the five days missed plus the ASB kept him fresh enough to sport that .900+ OPS?  

That's why I've felt for the last couple of years that they should automatically give him two days off each week. One weekend game and one weekday game. The season is 27 weeks long. That would still give him around 130+ games and keep his legs & feet fresher.

[WeatherWonk]

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

This surprises me a little.  So he’s the exact definition of average for first baseman.   I assumed his inability to run would hit his ranking a bit coupled with his low OBP.  

I'm with you. Albert is not a good value, but he is not as bad, relative to the rest of the league, as I thought.

His performance is certainly not our problem. But his contract probably is part of it. 

[70runner]

Pujols is not the problem, but he is a problem.  25M/yr for an average (at best) 1B/DH that can't run is not a formula for success.  An argument is frequently offered that the Angels have no obvious replacement.  While true, it's a deliberate strategy.  They haven't seriously considered developing a MOTO guy that could eventually replace him, either on the roster or in the farm.  MOTOs with potential, Trumbo and Cron for ex, are expendable because Pujols is a fixture (literally) and can't be traded.