As it turns out, Stoneman was the genius, not Scioscia

[UndertheHalo]

Just now, Lou said:

the sound of your laughter will be drowned out by the silence of the whiny bitches.

The whiny bitches are never silent. 

[Lou]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

The whiny bitches are never silent. 

they are when we're winning 

[Stax]

The biggest mistake the Angels made was not signing Adrián Beltré. Beltre wanted to sign with the Angels, but the Angels hesitated and the Rangers  signed Beltre. That lead to the Vernon Wells trade, since Artie wanted a power bat that off season. With Beltre the Angels would of been contenders. 

[Lou]

18 minutes ago, calscuf said:

Didn’t the loss of Beltre and the failure of Vernon Wells also contribute to the Pujols signing?

can one really lose something he has never possessed? 

[Lou]

damn, that shit was deep 

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

agree.  the GM is 10 times.  maybe 100 times more important than the manager.  Or I should say it's the person or team in charge of player personnel from the minor to the majors.  It could be the GM or President of baseball ops or VP of baseball ops etc.  

Who is responsible for the players that the manager has to choose from? 

don't kid yourself.  starting from around 2004, Mike Scioscia was a major contributor to the Angels roster.  Now I'm gonna write something crazy and we'll see who agree.  Scioscia was the main reason Stoneman stepped down.  Stoneman hoarded prospects.  MS wanted the talent focus to be on the big club.  It was his influence that propagated a change in direction.  

Tony was hired in Oct 2007.  His first order of business was to trade Ocab for Garland.  Next up was the signing of Hunter.  And at the deadline of the 2008 season, he acquired Tex for almost nothing.  He signed Shoe in Aug of 2008.  Then he signed Darren Oliver prior to 2009 season.  His crew acquired Miguel gonzalez and Darren O'day in the 2009 rule 5 draft.  He also signed Juan Rivera to a 3yr deal.  Brian Fuentes was acquired in late 2008 prior to the 2009 season.  Abreu in feb 2009.  While likely under Eddie Bane's watch, the halos had one of the best drafts in baseball history in 2009.  

So let's call a spade and spade.  His track record (Reagins) was very good until..........he acquired Kazmir at the August deadline in 2009.  How much 2007 to that point was under the influence of MS?  or Arte?  Everything was fine until Fuentes shit the bed and Arte had a meltdown.  Why?  Because Reagins was likely a lame duck.  

Then the 2009 off season was comprised of dumping figgy, escobar, guerrero, oliver, lackey, and signing Matsui and Rodney.  

Then the real shit hit the fan.  the 2010 draft.  Acquiring Dan Haren ( which was probably pretty reasonable but gave the halos no additional chance in 2010).  

And of course the trade of Napoli and Rivera for Vernon Wells.  But here's a question.  What was the worst thing that Reagins did prior to the Wells trade?  A trade that was potentially influenced by Arte because of our inability to sign Carl Crawford.  I guess the big question is how much was Reagins influenced by Scioscia and Arte?  Word has it that the reason he got fired was that he wasn't really doing anything anyway.  

My point is, I think MS had a great deal to do with roster construction from around 2004 to the time Jerry took over.

I'm not sure where Scioscia stopped and someone else started.  But it wasn't just Stoneman starting in 2004. 

That doesn't change the negligible influence of what a manager does.  Mike's influence as a manager has been pretty static.  Which is likely fair to good for any particular season and depending on personnel.   It's that gap from 2004 to 2011 where it's just impossible to say what his influence was.  

We all know about how Jerry's squandered his inheritance shortly thereafter.   The first thing his did was trade Chatwood for Iannetta.  Then he fired hatcher and traded Mathis.  Talk about shots across the bow.  Signed Albert and CJ.  LaTroy, Isringhausen.  

Traded Amarista and Roach for Frieri.  

Traded for Greinke (Pena, Hellweg and Segura)

Ervin Santana for Brandon Sisk

Added Madson, Tommy Hanson (RIP), Blanton, Burnett.  

Traded Morales for Jason Vargas

BTW, at this point in Dipoto's career, take a look at what he did vs. what Reagins did.  Yes, hindsight is 2020, but is there anything redeeming for Jerry?  

Anyway, let's continue.  Bear in mind, none of these transactions listed take into account the farm system by and large.  

In april of 2013, Jerry's team signed Jaime Barria.  That might be one of the best transactions of his Halo career.  

In the prior to 2014 season, he sent bourjos and Grichuk for Salas and Freese.  

Signed Joe Smith.  

Acquired Santiago and Skaggs for Trumbo.  The awesome part about this is he could have gotten Eaton and Skaggs for Trumbo.  

Signed Raul Ibanez

Traded Romine for Jose Alvarez.  In the top 5 for his best transactions.  

We actually had Rich Hill for 8 days.  

Traded for Huston Street and Trevor Gott with Lindsey, Alvarez, Rondon and Morris.  Another in his top 5.  

Traded Clevinger for Vinnie Pestano

Traded Conger for Perez, and Trop

Traded Kendrick for Heaney.  another in the top 5.  

And that's pretty much it for Jerry.  Barria, Skaggs, Heaney, Street.  His best transaction was probably the Trout extension.  

Shall we continue with Billy?

Simmons for Newcomb, Ellis and Aybar

Marte for Kody Eaves.  

JC Ramirez off waivers.  (6/2016)

Joe Smith for Jesus Castillo. 

Santiago for Meyer and Nolasco

Blake Parker off waivers in 10/2016

Yates off waivers the same day.  87k in 55.2ip last year for SDP and 37k in 32ip for SDP this year.  Should have kept him.  

Signed Justin Miller on 11/8/16.  18.2ip, 29k for WSN this year.  2.89 era. 

Signed John Lamb

traded McGowin and Austin Adams fro Espinosa.  

Maldonado for Bandy.  

Luis Valbuena signed on 1/24/17

signed Bud Norris 

signed Yusmeiro Petit 

traded for Bridwell (for cash)

traded for David Hernandez for cash

Kirby Yates lost to waivers

Released Justin Miller

Traded David Hernandez for Luis Madero.  21yo starter for burlington.  3.19era in 53.2ip.  41k.  

signed Noe Ramirez off waivers

signed Blake Wood

traded for Brandon Phillips (for Tony Sanchez).  

Justin Upton for Grayson Long and Elvin Rodriguez (3.38 era with 63 in 58.2ip at A ball as a 20yo).  

Felix Pena for cash 10/9/2018

Jim Johnson for intl bonus money and Justin Kelly .  

Traded Jacob Pearson for intl money.  (.774ops in A ball at age 20)

Signed Ohtani.  

Trade for Kinsler with Wilkel Hernandez (1.2ip this year with a 5.4 era) and Troy Montgomery (.631 ops at A+ as a 23yo). 

Signed Zach Cozart

Signed Jose Fernandez

Signed Rene Rivera

Traded CJ Cron for Luis Rengifo

Signed Chris Young.  

One of my points for going through this is to show that no manager has ever done any of the above in the modern era.  Is a hit and run call going to influence the nature of a team like most of these transactions?  

There is a lot I agree with.  There a couple things I really disagree with.  However if I stay focus on the premise of your post I really agree that the gm in professional sports are more important than a coach.  And in baseball the gm is far more important than the manager.

[Lou]

26 minutes ago, Stax said:

The biggest mistake the Angels made was not signing Adrián Beltré. Beltre wanted to sign with the Angels, but the Angels hesitated and the Rangers  signed Beltre. That lead to the Vernon Wells trade, since Artie wanted a power bat that off season. With Beltre the Angels would of been contenders. 

how do you know this?

[UndertheHalo]

I mean, is there anyone that actually believes a baseball manager is more important then a GM ?

[UndertheHalo]

1 minute ago, Lou said:

how do you know this?

He doesn’t.

the rangers offered more money.  The end. 

[Lou]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

He doesn’t.

the rangers offered more money.  The end. 

yep.

then Beltre said :"Texas is where I wanted to play" 

[Lou]

3 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I mean, is there anyone that actually believes a baseball manager is more important then a GM ?

on AW? I'm guessing there a several. 

[Roy Hobbs]

Lately there is large amount of unreadable crap to wade through on this site.@dochalo then makes this great post,it is factual,informative,well written and not agenda driven.Thank you so much,it just shows why AW can be such a great place.Well done Doc, and thanks again for the amount of hard work and thought you put in it.

[Lou]

 

I

 

 

 

doc

[Rico]

Hope Eppler learns from his mistakes.  

[Stradling]

6 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

I mean, is there anyone that actually believes a baseball manager is more important then a GM ?

Have you ever read the game day threads?  When was the last time you read a thread titled, “Should Eppler be fired”?  Do you know what food Eppler likes?  Is Eppler purposely losing games because he secretly wants to be the Yankees GM?   

[nando714]

8 hours ago, Dochalo said:

agree.  the GM is 10 times.  maybe 100 times more important than the manager.  Or I should say it's the person or team in charge of player personnel from the minor to the majors.  It could be the GM or President of baseball ops or VP of baseball ops etc.  

Who is responsible for the players that the manager has to choose from? 

don't kid yourself.  starting from around 2004, Mike Scioscia was a major contributor to the Angels roster.  Now I'm gonna write something crazy and we'll see who agree.  Scioscia was the main reason Stoneman stepped down.  Stoneman hoarded prospects.  MS wanted the talent focus to be on the big club.  It was his influence that propagated a change in direction.  

Tony was hired in Oct 2007.  His first order of business was to trade Ocab for Garland.  Next up was the signing of Hunter.  And at the deadline of the 2008 season, he acquired Tex for almost nothing.  He signed Shoe in Aug of 2008.  Then he signed Darren Oliver prior to 2009 season.  His crew acquired Miguel gonzalez and Darren O'day in the 2009 rule 5 draft.  He also signed Juan Rivera to a 3yr deal.  Brian Fuentes was acquired in late 2008 prior to the 2009 season.  Abreu in feb 2009.  While likely under Eddie Bane's watch, the halos had one of the best drafts in baseball history in 2009.  

So let's call a spade and spade.  His track record (Reagins) was very good until..........he acquired Kazmir at the August deadline in 2009.  How much 2007 to that point was under the influence of MS?  or Arte?  Everything was fine until Fuentes shit the bed and Arte had a meltdown.  Why?  Because Reagins was likely a lame duck.  

Then the 2009 off season was comprised of dumping figgy, escobar, guerrero, oliver, lackey, and signing Matsui and Rodney.  

Then the real shit hit the fan.  the 2010 draft.  Acquiring Dan Haren ( which was probably pretty reasonable but gave the halos no additional chance in 2010).  

And of course the trade of Napoli and Rivera for Vernon Wells.  But here's a question.  What was the worst thing that Reagins did prior to the Wells trade?  A trade that was potentially influenced by Arte because of our inability to sign Carl Crawford.  I guess the big question is how much was Reagins influenced by Scioscia and Arte?  Word has it that the reason he got fired was that he wasn't really doing anything anyway.  

My point is, I think MS had a great deal to do with roster construction from around 2004 to the time Jerry took over.

I'm not sure where Scioscia stopped and someone else started.  But it wasn't just Stoneman starting in 2004. 

That doesn't change the negligible influence of what a manager does.  Mike's influence as a manager has been pretty static.  Which is likely fair to good for any particular season and depending on personnel.   It's that gap from 2004 to 2011 where it's just impossible to say what his influence was.  

We all know about how Jerry's squandered his inheritance shortly thereafter.   The first thing his did was trade Chatwood for Iannetta.  Then he fired hatcher and traded Mathis.  Talk about shots across the bow.  Signed Albert and CJ.  LaTroy, Isringhausen.  

Traded Amarista and Roach for Frieri.  

Traded for Greinke (Pena, Hellweg and Segura)

Ervin Santana for Brandon Sisk

Added Madson, Tommy Hanson (RIP), Blanton, Burnett.  

Traded Morales for Jason Vargas

BTW, at this point in Dipoto's career, take a look at what he did vs. what Reagins did.  Yes, hindsight is 2020, but is there anything redeeming for Jerry?  

Anyway, let's continue.  Bear in mind, none of these transactions listed take into account the farm system by and large.  

In april of 2013, Jerry's team signed Jaime Barria.  That might be one of the best transactions of his Halo career.  

In the prior to 2014 season, he sent bourjos and Grichuk for Salas and Freese.  

Signed Joe Smith.  

Acquired Santiago and Skaggs for Trumbo.  The awesome part about this is he could have gotten Eaton and Skaggs for Trumbo.  

Signed Raul Ibanez

Traded Romine for Jose Alvarez.  In the top 5 for his best transactions.  

We actually had Rich Hill for 8 days.  

Traded for Huston Street and Trevor Gott with Lindsey, Alvarez, Rondon and Morris.  Another in his top 5.  

Traded Clevinger for Vinnie Pestano

Traded Conger for Perez, and Trop

Traded Kendrick for Heaney.  another in the top 5.  

And that's pretty much it for Jerry.  Barria, Skaggs, Heaney, Street.  His best transaction was probably the Trout extension.  

Shall we continue with Billy?

Simmons for Newcomb, Ellis and Aybar

Marte for Kody Eaves.  

JC Ramirez off waivers.  (6/2016)

Joe Smith for Jesus Castillo. 

Santiago for Meyer and Nolasco

Blake Parker off waivers in 10/2016

Yates off waivers the same day.  87k in 55.2ip last year for SDP and 37k in 32ip for SDP this year.  Should have kept him.  

Signed Justin Miller on 11/8/16.  18.2ip, 29k for WSN this year.  2.89 era. 

Signed John Lamb

traded McGowin and Austin Adams fro Espinosa.  

Maldonado for Bandy.  

Luis Valbuena signed on 1/24/17

signed Bud Norris 

signed Yusmeiro Petit 

traded for Bridwell (for cash)

traded for David Hernandez for cash

Kirby Yates lost to waivers

Released Justin Miller

Traded David Hernandez for Luis Madero.  21yo starter for burlington.  3.19era in 53.2ip.  41k.  

signed Noe Ramirez off waivers

signed Blake Wood

traded for Brandon Phillips (for Tony Sanchez).  

Justin Upton for Grayson Long and Elvin Rodriguez (3.38 era with 63 in 58.2ip at A ball as a 20yo).  

Felix Pena for cash 10/9/2018

Jim Johnson for intl bonus money and Justin Kelly .  

Traded Jacob Pearson for intl money.  (.774ops in A ball at age 20)

Signed Ohtani.  

Trade for Kinsler with Wilkel Hernandez (1.2ip this year with a 5.4 era) and Troy Montgomery (.631 ops at A+ as a 23yo). 

Signed Zach Cozart

Signed Jose Fernandez

Signed Rene Rivera

Traded CJ Cron for Luis Rengifo

Signed Chris Young.  

One of my points for going through this is to show that no manager has ever done any of the above in the modern era.  Is a hit and run call going to influence the nature of a team like most of these transactions?  

I just wanted to quote this 

[nate]

@Dochalo it has been beaten to death here, but giving the MLB manager control over personnel is never the right way to do things for all the reasons you highlighted in your post.

The MLB manager just wants to win today and win tomorrow, it isn't his job to worry about next season, or the next five.  That is where the Angels really got into trouble, trading away the future for now.

Additionally, Scioscia didn't adjust to changes in MLB and to his own roster.

[nate]

8 hours ago, Lou said:

how do you know this?

There were plenty of articles that came out stating that the Angels were not willing to go a 6th year on Beltre.  It led to them trading for Wells.

But a lot of that was Arte's moronic war with Boras.

[Blarg]

2 minutes ago, nate said:

There were plenty of articles that came out stating that the Angels were not willing to go a 6th year on Beltre.  It led to them trading for Wells.

But a lot of that was Arte's moronic war with Boras.

So Beltre didn't want to play for the Angels, he wanted more money and more years. Thanks for clarifying.

[Dick B Back]

Thanks @Dochalo, seeing all those transactions all in one place allowed me to both smile and cringe multiple times in a matter of seconds!

[Dick B Back]

1 hour ago, The Boogie Man said:

Have you ever read the game day threads?  When was the last time you read a thread titled, “Should Eppler be fired”?  Do you know what food Eppler likes?  Is Eppler purposely losing games because he secretly wants to be the Yankees GM?   

Has Eppler ever been referred to as the “fat man?”

[T.G.]

Great breakdown @Dochalo

The sad thing is we can't even blame Reagins for GMJ. Haha

The one thing Scioscia doesn't get enough credit for is changing the culture of the Angels.  He really played a major role in transforming their mindset from being mediocre to setting championship expectations.  I read a lot about how he and Stoneman addressed that together - but it was Scioscia who brought a whole different mindset to the organization. Maybe that was his greatest contribution and if some want to argue it was his "only" contribution - so be it. 

I always say... winning is hard.  Winning it all is even harder - it's just incredibly difficult. 

[Angel Oracle]

Scioscia’smain strength is creating a solid clubhouse.

[Lou]

17 minutes ago, nate said:

There were plenty of articles that came out stating that the Angels were not willing to go a 6th year on Beltre.  It led to them trading for Wells.

But a lot of that was Arte's moronic war with Boras.

that proves that we wanted Beltre, not that Beltre wanted us. 

[Blarg]

Nate is pretty good at confirmation of the opposing argument.