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As it turns out, Stoneman was the genius, not Scioscia


nate

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So much is made about Scioscia and how great he is, etc, at the same time, current performance isn't his fault... but then, shouldn't you say that about his past performance.

Figure a good GM needs 2-3 years to get his guys and org philosophy in through coaching, FA signing and drafting, then when you look at the Angels best years 2001-2009 totally coincide with Stoneman who was the GM from 1999-2007.

Scioscia on the other hand has only ever looked "brilliant" when he had Stoneman's guys.

So, really, we should stop looking at washed up Scoscia as anything other than a guy who rode a lucky wave of talent.  By the end of his contract with the Angels he will have made the playoffs 7 times in 18 seasons.

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46 minutes ago, nate said:

So, really, we should stop looking at washed up Scoscia as anything other than a guy who rode a lucky wave of talent.  By the end of his contract with the Angels he will have made the playoffs 7 times in 18 seasons.

Name me a manager that won without talent and I'll call you a goddamn liar.

My father coached football for over thirty years. His favorite saying pertaining to coaches was this:

"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit."

Is Scioscia perfect? No. But he's not the one giving up home runs out of the bullpen. The individuals upper-management hired for that job have failed repeatedly this season, and seasons past.

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2 hours ago, nate said:

So much is made about Scioscia and how great he is, etc, at the same time, current performance isn't his fault... but then, shouldn't you say that about his past performance.

Figure a good GM needs 2-3 years to get his guys and org philosophy in through coaching, FA signing and drafting, then when you look at the Angels best years 2001-2009 totally coincide with Stoneman who was the GM from 1999-2007.

Scioscia on the other hand has only ever looked "brilliant" when he had Stoneman's guys.

So, really, we should stop looking at washed up Scoscia as anything other than a guy who rode a lucky wave of talent.  By the end of his contract with the Angels he will have made the playoffs 7 times in 18 seasons.

Scioscia looked brilliant when he had talent.  Like all managers.  Stoneman, despite my criticism was excellent building a talented and deep roster. (In hindsight I regret all the bad things I said about him)

Its Scioscia last year.  Can you guys quit finding new reasons ways to bitch about him?

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43 minutes ago, nate said:

So much is made about Scioscia and how great he is, etc, at the same time, current performance isn't his fault... but then, shouldn't you say that about his past performance.

Figure a good GM needs 2-3 years to get his guys and org philosophy in through coaching, FA signing and drafting, then when you look at the Angels best years 2001-2009 totally coincide with Stoneman who was the GM from 1999-2007.

Scioscia on the other hand has only ever looked "brilliant" when he had Stoneman's guys.

So, really, we should stop looking at washed up Scoscia as anything other than a guy who rode a lucky wave of talent.  By the end of his contract with the Angels he will have made the playoffs 7 times in 18 seasons.

agree.  the GM is 10 times.  maybe 100 times more important than the manager.  Or I should say it's the person or team in charge of player personnel from the minor to the majors.  It could be the GM or President of baseball ops or VP of baseball ops etc.  

Who is responsible for the players that the manager has to choose from? 

don't kid yourself.  starting from around 2004, Mike Scioscia was a major contributor to the Angels roster.  Now I'm gonna write something crazy and we'll see who agree.  Scioscia was the main reason Stoneman stepped down.  Stoneman hoarded prospects.  MS wanted the talent focus to be on the big club.  It was his influence that propagated a change in direction.  

Tony was hired in Oct 2007.  His first order of business was to trade Ocab for Garland.  Next up was the signing of Hunter.  And at the deadline of the 2008 season, he acquired Tex for almost nothing.  He signed Shoe in Aug of 2008.  Then he signed Darren Oliver prior to 2009 season.  His crew acquired Miguel gonzalez and Darren O'day in the 2009 rule 5 draft.  He also signed Juan Rivera to a 3yr deal.  Brian Fuentes was acquired in late 2008 prior to the 2009 season.  Abreu in feb 2009.  While likely under Eddie Bane's watch, the halos had one of the best drafts in baseball history in 2009.  

So let's call a spade and spade.  His track record (Reagins) was very good until..........he acquired Kazmir at the August deadline in 2009.  How much 2007 to that point was under the influence of MS?  or Arte?  Everything was fine until Fuentes shit the bed and Arte had a meltdown.  Why?  Because Reagins was likely a lame duck.  

Then the 2009 off season was comprised of dumping figgy, escobar, guerrero, oliver, lackey, and signing Matsui and Rodney.  

Then the real shit hit the fan.  the 2010 draft.  Acquiring Dan Haren ( which was probably pretty reasonable but gave the halos no additional chance in 2010).  

And of course the trade of Napoli and Rivera for Vernon Wells.  But here's a question.  What was the worst thing that Reagins did prior to the Wells trade?  A trade that was potentially influenced by Arte because of our inability to sign Carl Crawford.  I guess the big question is how much was Reagins influenced by Scioscia and Arte?  Word has it that the reason he got fired was that he wasn't really doing anything anyway.  

My point is, I think MS had a great deal to do with roster construction from around 2004 to the time Jerry took over.

I'm not sure where Scioscia stopped and someone else started.  But it wasn't just Stoneman starting in 2004. 

That doesn't change the negligible influence of what a manager does.  Mike's influence as a manager has been pretty static.  Which is likely fair to good for any particular season and depending on personnel.   It's that gap from 2004 to 2011 where it's just impossible to say what his influence was.  

We all know about how Jerry's squandered his inheritance shortly thereafter.   The first thing his did was trade Chatwood for Iannetta.  Then he fired hatcher and traded Mathis.  Talk about shots across the bow.  Signed Albert and CJ.  LaTroy, Isringhausen.  

Traded Amarista and Roach for Frieri.  

Traded for Greinke (Pena, Hellweg and Segura)

Ervin Santana for Brandon Sisk

Added Madson, Tommy Hanson (RIP), Blanton, Burnett.  

Traded Morales for Jason Vargas

BTW, at this point in Dipoto's career, take a look at what he did vs. what Reagins did.  Yes, hindsight is 2020, but is there anything redeeming for Jerry?  

Anyway, let's continue.  Bear in mind, none of these transactions listed take into account the farm system by and large.  

In april of 2013, Jerry's team signed Jaime Barria.  That might be one of the best transactions of his Halo career.  

In the prior to 2014 season, he sent bourjos and Grichuk for Salas and Freese.  

Signed Joe Smith.  

Acquired Santiago and Skaggs for Trumbo.  The awesome part about this is he could have gotten Eaton and Skaggs for Trumbo.  

Signed Raul Ibanez

Traded Romine for Jose Alvarez.  In the top 5 for his best transactions.  

We actually had Rich Hill for 8 days.  

Traded for Huston Street and Trevor Gott with Lindsey, Alvarez, Rondon and Morris.  Another in his top 5.  

Traded Clevinger for Vinnie Pestano

Traded Conger for Perez, and Trop

Traded Kendrick for Heaney.  another in the top 5.  

And that's pretty much it for Jerry.  Barria, Skaggs, Heaney, Street.  His best transaction was probably the Trout extension.  

Shall we continue with Billy?

Simmons for Newcomb, Ellis and Aybar

Marte for Kody Eaves.  

JC Ramirez off waivers.  (6/2016)

Joe Smith for Jesus Castillo. 

Santiago for Meyer and Nolasco

Blake Parker off waivers in 10/2016

Yates off waivers the same day.  87k in 55.2ip last year for SDP and 37k in 32ip for SDP this year.  Should have kept him.  

Signed Justin Miller on 11/8/16.  18.2ip, 29k for WSN this year.  2.89 era. 

Signed John Lamb

traded McGowin and Austin Adams fro Espinosa.  

Maldonado for Bandy.  

Luis Valbuena signed on 1/24/17

signed Bud Norris 

signed Yusmeiro Petit 

traded for Bridwell (for cash)

traded for David Hernandez for cash

Kirby Yates lost to waivers

Released Justin Miller

Traded David Hernandez for Luis Madero.  21yo starter for burlington.  3.19era in 53.2ip.  41k.  

signed Noe Ramirez off waivers

signed Blake Wood

traded for Brandon Phillips (for Tony Sanchez).  

Justin Upton for Grayson Long and Elvin Rodriguez (3.38 era with 63 in 58.2ip at A ball as a 20yo).  

Felix Pena for cash 10/9/2018

Jim Johnson for intl bonus money and Justin Kelly .  

Traded Jacob Pearson for intl money.  (.774ops in A ball at age 20)

Signed Ohtani.  

Trade for Kinsler with Wilkel Hernandez (1.2ip this year with a 5.4 era) and Troy Montgomery (.631 ops at A+ as a 23yo). 

Signed Zach Cozart

Signed Jose Fernandez

Signed Rene Rivera

Traded CJ Cron for Luis Rengifo

Signed Chris Young.  

One of my points for going through this is to show that no manager has ever done any of the above in the modern era.  Is a hit and run call going to influence the nature of a team like most of these transactions?  

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33 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

agree.  the GM is 10 times.  maybe 100 times more important than the manager.  Or I should say it's the person or team in charge of player personnel from the minor to the majors.  It could be the GM or President of baseball ops or VP of baseball ops etc.  

Who is responsible for the players that the manager has to choose from? 

don't kid yourself.  starting from around 2004, Mike Scioscia was a major contributor to the Angels roster.  Now I'm gonna write something crazy and we'll see who agree.  Scioscia was the main reason Stoneman stepped down.  Stoneman hoarded prospects.  MS wanted the talent focus to be on the big club.  It was his influence that propagated a change in direction.  

Tony was hired in Oct 2007.  His first order of business was to trade Ocab for Garland.  Next up was the signing of Hunter.  And at the deadline of the 2008 season, he acquired Tex for almost nothing.  He signed Shoe in Aug of 2008.  Then he signed Darren Oliver prior to 2009 season.  His crew acquired Miguel gonzalez and Darren O'day in the 2009 rule 5 draft.  He also signed Juan Rivera to a 3yr deal.  Brian Fuentes was acquired in late 2008 prior to the 2009 season.  Abreu in feb 2009.  While likely under Eddie Bane's watch, the halos had one of the best drafts in baseball history in 2009.  

So let's call a spade and spade.  His track record (Reagins) was very good until..........he acquired Kazmir at the August deadline in 2009.  How much 2007 to that point was under the influence of MS?  or Arte?  Everything was fine until Fuentes shit the bed and Arte had a meltdown.  Why?  Because Reagins was likely a lame duck.  

Then the 2009 off season was comprised of dumping figgy, escobar, guerrero, oliver, lackey, and signing Matsui and Rodney.  

Then the real shit hit the fan.  the 2010 draft.  Acquiring Dan Haren ( which was probably pretty reasonable but gave the halos no additional chance in 2010).  

And of course the trade of Napoli and Rivera for Vernon Wells.  But here's a question.  What was the worst thing that Reagins did prior to the Wells trade?  A trade that was potentially influenced by Arte because of our inability to sign Carl Crawford.  I guess the big question is how much was Reagins influenced by Scioscia and Arte?  Word has it that the reason he got fired was that he wasn't really doing anything anyway.  

My point is, I think MS had a great deal to do with roster construction from around 2004 to the time Jerry took over.

I'm not sure where Scioscia stopped and someone else started.  But it wasn't just Stoneman starting in 2004. 

That doesn't change the negligible influence of what a manager does.  Mike's influence as a manager has been pretty static.  Which is likely fair to good for any particular season and depending on personnel.   It's that gap from 2004 to 2011 where it's just impossible to say what his influence was.  

We all know about how Jerry's squandered his inheritance shortly thereafter.   The first thing his did was trade Chatwood for Iannetta.  Then he fired hatcher and traded Mathis.  Talk about shots across the bow.  Signed Albert and CJ.  LaTroy, Isringhausen.  

Traded Amarista and Roach for Frieri.  

Traded for Greinke (Pena, Hellweg and Segura)

Ervin Santana for Brandon Sisk

Added Madson, Tommy Hanson (RIP), Blanton, Burnett.  

Traded Morales for Jason Vargas

BTW, at this point in Dipoto's career, take a look at what he did vs. what Reagins did.  Yes, hindsight is 2020, but is there anything redeeming for Jerry?  

Anyway, let's continue.  Bear in mind, none of these transactions listed take into account the farm system by and large.  

In april of 2013, Jerry's team signed Jaime Barria.  That might be one of the best transactions of his Halo career.  

In the prior to 2014 season, he sent bourjos and Grichuk for Salas and Freese.  

Signed Joe Smith.  

Acquired Santiago and Skaggs for Trumbo.  The awesome part about this is he could have gotten Eaton and Skaggs for Trumbo.  

Signed Raul Ibanez

Traded Romine for Jose Alvarez.  In the top 5 for his best transactions.  

We actually had Rich Hill for 8 days.  

Traded for Huston Street and Trevor Gott with Lindsey, Alvarez, Rondon and Morris.  Another in his top 5.  

Traded Clevinger for Vinnie Pestano

Traded Conger for Perez, and Trop

Traded Kendrick for Heaney.  another in the top 5.  

And that's pretty much it for Jerry.  Barria, Skaggs, Heaney, Street.  His best transaction was probably the Trout extension.  

Shall we continue with Billy?

Simmons for Newcomb, Ellis and Aybar

Marte for Kody Eaves.  

JC Ramirez off waivers.  (6/2016)

Joe Smith for Jesus Castillo. 

Santiago for Meyer and Nolasco

Blake Parker off waivers in 10/2016

Yates off waivers the same day.  87k in 55.2ip last year for SDP and 37k in 32ip for SDP this year.  Should have kept him.  

Signed Justin Miller on 11/8/16.  18.2ip, 29k for WSN this year.  2.89 era. 

Signed John Lamb

traded McGowin and Austin Adams fro Espinosa.  

Maldonado for Bandy.  

Luis Valbuena signed on 1/24/17

signed Bud Norris 

signed Yusmeiro Petit 

traded for Bridwell (for cash)

traded for David Hernandez for cash

Kirby Yates lost to waivers

Released Justin Miller

Traded David Hernandez for Luis Madero.  21yo starter for burlington.  3.19era in 53.2ip.  41k.  

signed Noe Ramirez off waivers

signed Blake Wood

traded for Brandon Phillips (for Tony Sanchez).  

Justin Upton for Grayson Long and Elvin Rodriguez (3.38 era with 63 in 58.2ip at A ball as a 20yo).  

Felix Pena for cash 10/9/2018

Jim Johnson for intl bonus money and Justin Kelly .  

Traded Jacob Pearson for intl money.  (.774ops in A ball at age 20)

Signed Ohtani.  

Trade for Kinsler with Wilkel Hernandez (1.2ip this year with a 5.4 era) and Troy Montgomery (.631 ops at A+ as a 23yo). 

Signed Zach Cozart

Signed Jose Fernandez

Signed Rene Rivera

Traded CJ Cron for Luis Rengifo

Signed Chris Young.  

One of my points for going through this is to show that no manager has ever done any of the above in the modern era.  Is a hit and run call going to influence the nature of a team like most of these transactions?  

I think your talents are wasted being a doctor.  Unless you’re a chiropractor, the “real” doctors.

You need to be a consultant for the Angels.

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