The Official 2017-2018 Hot Stove Thread

[floplag]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

It puts them closer to WC contention though.

Does it?  they were 21 games back of that last year too, have they improved more than the Brewers?  heck i might even argue the Giants got better  thats not even counting the D-backs and Rockies, maybe even Padres

[Stradling]

26 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

Our hitting has. Cant say the same thing about our pitching. Big question marks, again.

So has our defense, but I do share your concerns about our bullpen.  I am not too worried about our starting rotation.  

[floplag]

2 hours ago, SuperTroopers said:

Well it means he’s still capable of being dominant for an extended period of time.  Will it work out, no, but he got less than others that aren’t as good. 

like who?  this off season...

[ettin]

1 hour ago, SuperTroopers said:

Well, he might be willing to.  Are you sad at what we gave up for Upton?  Kinsler?  Do I think he will give up top prospects for a rental, no.  But I also trust Eppler to trade the right pieces for the right guy, while others might be more skeptical.  Now, since I don’t follow amateur baseball like others, I would have to ask someone like @Inside Pitch, but I thought I read that this year is a very strong and deep draft, but I could be wrong.  As far as not being able to rebuild and to make trades of prospects, I am sure if you try real hard nando, you can imagine him doing both.  What if he traded an outfielder (we have a ton of them) and an arm like Barria or the dude from UCLA and a Ward type for a guy like Archer.  He basically traded from excess to acquire a young top of the rotation type of guy, without destroying the farm.  Lastly, from what I have read on here, it isn’t just about losing the draft pick, it is also about losing draft money and international money.  If you lose your 2nd round draft money, it basically means you have much less flexibility in the entire draft.  You can’t sign a guy early that won’t be a signability concern, and try to sign a high school stud that would need to get a healthy amount over slot to sign.  In other words it would be a lot more harmful to the farm than simply that pick.  

I'll leave IP and others to respond as well but it is my understanding that after the Top 5 or so it is a pretty deep tier from about the late single digits all the way through the 1st round or so meaning that approximately #10-#40 are all on the same relative level talent-wise. I could be off but I read that recently (and cannot find the source right now).

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, floplag said:

like who?  this off season...

This off season?  Well I would put him on par with Darvish.  I know you think everything has changed because of this off season, maybe you're right.  You were certainly right about Arrieta, except you still think he is overpaid, but you were wrong about Hosmer, and JD and Darvish.  This could possibly be the start of a trend, but i kinda doubt it.  This is probably more about what is happening next off season.  The biggest spenders are preparing to battle it out for the free agent class of next year.  

[floplag]

1 hour ago, SuperTroopers said:

This off season?  Well I would put him on par with Darvish.  I know you think everything has changed because of this off season, maybe you're right.  You were certainly right about Arrieta, except you still think he is overpaid, but you were wrong about Hosmer, and JD and Darvish.  This could possibly be the start of a trend, but i kinda doubt it.  This is probably more about what is happening next off season.  The biggest spenders are preparing to battle it out for the free agent class of next year.  

it wont be a trend as next off season is significantly more talented FA class.  And I may have been wrong on the money but i dont think i was wrong that they were overpayed, but no matter, well see in the long run i guess. 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

it wont be a trend as next off season is significantly more talented FA class.  And I may have been wrong on the money but i dont think i was wrong that they were overpayed, but no matter, well see in the long run i guess. 

They were simply paid the same as every other free agent class, by that I mean, a lot.  If you haven't figured it out, 95% of free agents that get deals more than one or two years are overpaid.  This won't change and if it does then the players union should do everything in its power, including strike, to get free agency after year three or four.  

[floplag]

7 minutes ago, SuperTroopers said:

They were simply paid the same as every other free agent class, by that I mean, a lot.  If you haven't figured it out, 95% of free agents that get deals more than one or two years are overpaid.  This won't change and if it does then the players union should do everything in its power, including strike, to get free agency after year three or four.  

So let me see if i get you right here...
players that get more than 2-3 years are over paid
teams are now focusing more on shorter term 2-3 year deals with a lot of options
you believe that everyone who by your own admission is overpaid should strike to get a higher level of being over paid?  
Makes perfect sense.  

Ill say this, guys that are making what they make in guaranteed money, if they ever strike again ill be done with the game, period.  

Now if you are talking about the arbitration years, i might agree some, but certainly not veteran deals like these FAs.
it does seem asinine that the Astros for example can simply renew Correa at will as they have the last 2 years... they can kiss him goodbye first chance he gets.  
 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

So let me see if i get you right here...
players that get more than 2-3 years are over paid
teams are now focusing more on shorter term 2-3 year deals with a lot of options
you believe that everyone who by your own admission is overpaid should strike to get a higher level of being over paid?  
Makes perfect sense.  

Ill say this, guys that are making what they make in guaranteed money, if they ever strike again ill be done with the game, period.  

Now if you are talking about the arbitration years, i might agree some, but certainly not veteran deals like these FAs.
it does seem asinine that the Astros for example can simply renew Correa at will as they have the last 2 years... they can kiss him goodbye first chance he gets.  
 

What I am saying is young players are underpaid, and they make their real money when they become free agents.  If you grant free agency earlier then the players will get to be paid closer to their value sooner.  Not only that it would allow for a younger free agent that is more likely to live up to a free agent contract.  There is a reason guys like Hosmer and Heyward got paid what they got paid, because they were 26 years old free agents and it is the same reason Machado will have a really big contract.

As for your comments about options, look at them, Hosmer has player options, Arrieta has a player option, JD has a player option.  So it doesn't benefit the team at all.  The only option I remember lately to a upper class free agent that benefited the team would be Moustakas.

As for Correa being kissed goodbye, well that is what we said about Trout, three separate times, once when we drafted him after Grichuk to keep his number down, once when he was renewed for $550k (or something close to that) and once when he was renewed for $1 million.  He still signed here.  

[floplag]

13 minutes ago, SuperTroopers said:

What I am saying is young players are underpaid, and they make their real money when they become free agents.  If you grant free agency earlier then the players will get to be paid closer to their value sooner.  Not only that it would allow for a younger free agent that is more likely to live up to a free agent contract.  There is a reason guys like Hosmer and Heyward got paid what they got paid, because they were 26 years old free agents and it is the same reason Machado will have a really big contract.

As for your comments about options, look at them, Hosmer has player options, Arrieta has a player option, JD has a player option.  So it doesn't benefit the team at all.  The only option I remember lately to a upper class free agent that benefited the team would be Moustakas.

As for Correa being kissed goodbye, well that is what we said about Trout, three separate times, once when we drafted him after Grichuk to keep his number down, once when he was renewed for $550k (or something close to that) and once when he was renewed for $1 million.  He still signed here.  

i agree on the younger players.  

i disagree on the player options in the sense that unless they are mutual the players have the ability to simply say im opting in even if they are terrible and opt out of they are great, the teams assume all the risks.  i dont recall which of these were mutual but the intent is clear, if i do good im opting out for better, thats not exactly fair to the teams

Perhaps true on Correa, it depends completely on the man and how he views it.  Regardless i think it clearly doesnt exactly garner loyalty 

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, ettin said:

I'll leave IP and others to respond as well but it is my understanding that after the Top 5 or so it is a pretty deep tier from about the late single digits all the way through the 1st round or so meaning that approximately #10-#40 are all on the same relative level talent-wise. I could be off but I read that recently (and cannot find the source right now).

No, you pretty much got it down.  10-40 maybe even 50 are all pretty tightly clumped together...  Some people have said that a fourth rounder in this years draft will bring the same value a second rounder did last year.

No inside info, nothing I've heard from anyone ..  I just think he wanted to get his three full drafts in before he started losing picks and bonus monies...

 

 

[eaterfan]

27 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

No, you pretty much got it down.  10-40 maybe even 50 are all pretty tightly clumped together...  Some people have said that a fourth rounder in this years draft will bring the same value a second rounder did last year.

No inside info, nothing I've heard from anyone ..  I just think he wanted to get his three full drafts in before he started losing picks and bonus monies...

 

 

Also, for the people who say give up the pick, it's not just the pick. It's the slot money associated with the pick. Giving up that slot money pretty much keeps the team from reaching in several additional rounds. It's a big downward spiral. 

Additionally, a chunk of the farm's improvement has been due to signing Braves' prospects using international money from 2018. We won't be able to sign as many/as good international FAs as several other teams in the upcoming year. If we're going to continue to build the farm we need to keep our draft pool money.

[Inside Pitch]

 

42 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

Also, for the people who say give up the pick, it's not just the pick. It's the slot money associated with the pick. Giving up that slot money pretty much keeps the team from reaching in several additional rounds. It's a big downward spiral. 

Additionally, a chunk of the farm's improvement has been due to signing Braves' prospects using international money from 2018. We won't be able to sign as many/as good international FAs as several other teams in the upcoming year. If we're going to continue to build the farm we need to keep our draft pool money.

I don't think people are aware how the changes to the CBA made the money lost more important than the actual picks...   Teams that pay into revenue sharing (like the Angels) lose their 2nd, and 5th rounders plus the slot money for those picks -- additionally they lose 1 mil off the top of the international money pool...

Given how Eppler has spread his money around in his first two drafts, it always seemed extremely doubtful the Angels would pursue a player with any compensation attached...

 

[Ohtaniland]

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

11 hours ago, SuperTroopers said:

There is a reason guys like Hosmer and Heyward got paid what they got paid, because they were 26 years old free agents and it is the same reason Machado will have a really big contract.

Heyward wasn't worth his contract even though he was younger than most FA.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

10 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Given how Eppler has spread his money around in his first two drafts, it always seemed extremely doubtful the Angels would pursue a player with any compensation attached...

The way this offseason has gone I expect 2 things to change next year. 1. Only the truly great players will be given QO (Harper, Machado...). 2. Second tier players will not be offered QO because they probably except them. Not excepting them has cost Moustakas and Lynch big bucks. Next year signing FA will not cost draft pick losses for a lot more second tier players IMO.

[DMVol]

1 hour ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Heyward wasn't worth his contract even though he was younger than most FA.

Neither is Hosmer....Pads will regret that deal.....sooner rather than later.....

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

The way this offseason has gone I expect 2 things to change next year. 1. Only the truly great players will be given QO (Harper, Machado...). 2. Second tier players will not be offered QO because they probably except them. Not excepting them has cost Moustakas and Lynch big bucks. Next year signing FA will not cost draft pick losses for a lot more second tier players IMO.

Maybe!?   I have no clue which way it will go. 

The QO has seemingly given teams an excuse to not bid on guys -- MLB can say it's not colluding but the easiest way to work together to keep salaries down may be to give out QOs because it provides a rock solid excuse to not pursue guys with compensation attached.  Keep in mind teams will be using the QO as a way to gauge value, so anyone capable of a 3 WAR season is likely worth handing a QO too given the team will likely get that value back -- it's also why guys like Moustakas got shafted -- he's reached 3 bWAR once in the last five years.

Bill Veeck famously said "It isn't the high price of stars that is expensive, it's the high price of mediocrity."..  it seems with the QO owners finally found a way to keep the latter down..  The big guys and high end talents are still gonna get paid... 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

From MLBTR:

While there’s still plenty of time left in camp, there’s some rising unease within the Diamondbacks organization surrounding Zack Greinke, as Nick Piecoro of the Arizona Republic reports. Greinke himself noted that he’s somewhat “nervous” that he won’t be working in his typical low-nineties range by the start of the season given that he’s still sitting in the mid-eighties with his fastball.

----------------------------------------

He may be suffering from the Jared Weaver syndrome. 

 

[jordan]

Angels need to go out and get Holland.  As we’ve seen so far, the bullpen might have some issues.  Why not just go grab him for 2/$18-20.  He’s holding out for a closer role, and Angels can provide that.  Makes too much sense.  I don’t care about one second round pick.  

[jordan]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2762128-2018-spring-training-predictions-for-all-30-mlb-teams-final-25-man-rosters?share=sms

 

BR projecting Holland to be on Angels 25 man roster.  

[Angelsfan1984]

No way we should be going into the season with Parker as the closer. Ive had the feeling for a while that if our bp keeps getting blasted like this that we go and grab Holland. It makes way too much sense. I understand not wanting to lose out on the 2nd rounder but were built to win immediately. Fuck it, go get Cobb too and trade one of the starters for cash.

[Troll Daddy]

Aaron Judge recently told Manny Machado that he’d look good in pinstripes. What’s all the fuss about? 

[Angelsfan1984]

6 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Aaron Judge recently told Manny Machado that he’d look good in pinstripes. What’s all the fuss about? 

Someone should tell aaron judge that he would look good with some braces.

[eaterfan]

16 hours ago, jordan said:

Angels need to go out and get Holland.  As we’ve seen so far, the bullpen might have some issues.  Why not just go grab him for 2/$18-20.  He’s holding out for a closer role, and Angels can provide that.  Makes too much sense.  I don’t care about one second round pick.  

 

On 3/12/2018 at 4:36 PM, Inside Pitch said:

 

I don't think people are aware how the changes to the CBA made the money lost more important than the actual picks...   Teams that pay into revenue sharing (like the Angels) lose their 2nd, and 5th rounders plus the slot money for those picks -- additionally they lose 1 mil off the top of the international money pool...

Given how Eppler has spread his money around in his first two drafts, it always seemed extremely doubtful the Angels would pursue a player with any compensation attached...

 

It's basically ruining our entire 2018 amateur class. It's not just a 2nd round pick.