The Official 2017-2018 Hot Stove Thread

[VariousCrap]

2 hours ago, Kevinb said:

The owners didn’t just all become smart this offseason. They are talking to each other whether u think it or not. Owners are generally dumb when it comes to free agency. 

 

lmao

[kevinb]

2 hours ago, VariousCrap said:

 

lmao

I’m glad you liked that. They truly are. Giving Pujols a 250 million dollar contract at 32 is plain stupid. What how did he think that would turn out. Once “steroids” left the game there were no more guys hitting 60 bombs at 40 years of age. Once you hit 30 ish you start to decline.... usually give or take a couple years. Free agency at those ages are all about saying look who I got look what he did before. I’m not just poking at Pujols because there have been a ton of bad contracts given to people over 30. But just to do the Angels thing cause this is an Angels site. Arte couldn't have realistically thought a 42 year old Pujols was worth 30 plus million dollars a year. Hence owners are usually dumb when it comes to free agency. Look what the Yankees did when it came to the ARod deal the second time around. They literally bid against themselves. 

[Revad]

Of course Arte was hoping for success for the team, but it was also a marketing move.

[IheartLA]

you guys that are trying to make the argument against the players really are tunnel visioned. Forget Martinez, Hosmer and the 1% of 1%. So after the top ten or so free agents how are the other 95%, aka the middle class, doing? Do Moustakas or Morrison have any offers? Even 1 year offers. Howie Kendrick hit over .300 and got $3.5M. Adam Lind hit over .300 and didn't even get $5M. Any player over 33ish even if they do well the year before like Pagan in 2016, Freese in 2015 are basically forced to take a couple million if they're lucky.

A lot of guys in their thirties are now forced to take minor league 1 year deals with a spring training invite. Teams would rather go with a guy from their system making $500k for 3+ years then sign a veteran solid player. That's what's scaring the players and the agents.

[Blarg]

The reason is the top 10 want to each take up 20% of the AAV and the team still has to fill 24 more roster spots. And next the next batch of top ten want what the previous year's got until each team has the Angels problem of trying to navigate the salary cap while looking to keep their best guy who is going to demand even more. 

The owners are treating this years batch of free agents as the 2nd tier players that they are. All have shortcomings and yet they all want extended contracts at tier 1 prices. 

This was a long time coming, owners putting their foot down on escalating prices for star but not super star talent. The one year wonders that suddenly have their breakout year before free agency is just not turning heads anymore, their value is being based on three to five year performance and then what regression will happen over the course of the new contract. 

The agents and players don't want to accept anything less than the value of their last best season so there is the impasse. If they sit out in protest, thinking their union is going to back them they may find MLB will unleash some unflattering statistics as to why they are all not worth the valuation they demand. It won't help their cause one bit, and it's not going to help the future crop of free agents because it will force MLB to use a standardized valuation of talent which will cut a lot of these contracts way down in years, a return to the 80's where there were few contracts that exceeded four years. 

These guys are playing with fire. 

 

[Dtwncbad]

In 2012 player salaries were 56% of revenue.

Today player salaries are less than 40% of revenue.

Mathematically that means every player could be earning 30% more than they are today and the owners would still be getting richer.

You can see why the players union and the agents think that players today are getting squeezed.

The fact is there is a mountain of money in baseball.  The money is there.  It is just sitting in the owners' laps unspent.

To me it means this is a fantastic buyer's market right now for a premium player like Martinez.  He would be a steal at 5/150.

[AngelsFanSince86]

4 hours ago, IheartLA said:

you guys that are trying to make the argument against the players really are tunnel visioned. Forget Martinez, Hosmer and the 1% of 1%. So after the top ten or so free agents how are the other 95%, aka the middle class, doing? Do Moustakas or Morrison have any offers? Even 1 year offers. Howie Kendrick hit over .300 and got $3.5M. Adam Lind hit over .300 and didn't even get $5M. Any player over 33ish even if they do well the year before like Pagan in 2016, Freese in 2015 are basically forced to take a couple million if they're lucky.

A lot of guys in their thirties are now forced to take minor league 1 year deals with a spring training invite. Teams would rather go with a guy from their system making $500k for 3+ years then sign a veteran solid player. That's what's scaring the players and the agents.

You are really nitpicking stats.  Average isn't a stat that teams place a high value on anymore.  Not to say that it isn't important, but it's only important in the context of other stats.  Plus you can't take one season.  Lind's fWAR from 2015-2017 ranks 28th among 1st basemen.  Kendrick hasn't posted a WAR above 1.4 in the last 3 years and with the exception of a relatively small sample size last year hasn't shown much power or OBP.  Moustakas has never been a consistently valuable player and despite his 38 HRs (which nobody really knows is he will repeat.  I'll bet you right now he won't so let me know how confident you are in him if you think he's such a great add for a team) he posted a .314 OBP.  Thats terrible.  FYI Luis Valbuena has a higher fWAR than Moustakas does since 2013.  Maybe that will put this into perspective.  Logan Morrsion is basically the same.  One good year and now he should get paid?  I think you are the tunnel visioned one.

Martinez has a supposed offer for 5/125.  Why should he get paid more as basically a DH? Darvish reportedly has solid offers, but is waiting for a team of his preference.  

Part of this whole situation comes a combination of the big market teams wanting to get under the luxury tax, the FA market being one of the weakest in a while in terms of bonafide stars, most top FAs having Boras as their agent who is known to wait out the market, the trade market being really good, and teams needs not really fitting the market.  The Yankees showed they were willing to spend for the right guy.  They essentially signed Stanton to a $300M deal.  Wade Davis got a huge deal.  Teams are willing to spend, but the FAs keep thinking that regardless of how they actually compare to past seasons FAs that they should be getting more money. Somehow, JD thinks he should be breaking or tying the AAV record because he's the top hitter on the market despite not being in line with the type of players that have gotten that AAV.  Deals are on the table, that much has been reported.  It really comes down to players not getting what they want because the big spenders aren't competing for those players to drive the market price up.  

 

[Blarg]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

In 2012 player salaries were 56% of revenue.

Today player salaries are less than 40% of revenue.

Mathematically that means every player could be earning 30% more than they are today and the owners would still be getting richer.

You can see why the players union and the agents think that players today are getting squeezed.

The fact is there is a mountain of money in baseball.  The money is there.  It is just sitting in the owners' laps unspent.

To me it means this is a fantastic buyer's market right now for a premium player like Martinez.  He would be a steal at 5/150.

It is a fallacy to believe the roster is the only expense of owning a baseball team. 

[Dtwncbad]

10 minutes ago, Blarg said:

It is a fallacy to believe the roster is the only expense of owning a baseball team. 

Nobody said that.  Nobody.

[floplag]

You know the whole % of revenue thing cant be looked at as a whole. 
Some teams such as the Dodgers, Yankees, and even us who have very high dollar TV deals skew those numbers and teams that dont have such lucrative deals that number changes dramatically. 
This is the entire reason revenue sharing exists, to help the smaller market clubs without those resources compete, operative word being compete, not collect a paycheck . 
Overall it may be true, but on the average its far less out of line. 
I personally dont think the numbers are as out of whack as either side is suggesting and the reality is somewhere in the middle.   Either way there is no rule that says a baseball team must spend all its profits on payroll, no other company follows that, why would we expect them to.   It isnt justification to say teams are making money so players should get paid more, thats not accurate logic. 

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, floplag said:

You know the whole % of revenue thing cant be looked at as a whole. 
Some teams such as the Dodgers, Yankees, and even us who have very high dollar TV deals skew those numbers and teams that dont have such lucrative deals that number changes dramatically. 
This is the entire reason revenue sharing exists, to help the smaller market clubs without those resources compete, operative word being compete, not collect a paycheck . 
Overall it may be true, but on the average its far less out of line. 
I personally dont think the numbers are as out of whack as either side is suggesting and the reality is somewhere in the middle.   Either way there is no rule that says a baseball team must spend all its profits on payroll, no other company follows that, why would we expect them to.   It isnt justification to say teams are making money so players should get paid more, thats not accurate logic. 

You can't compare other companies to sports.  In sports the employees are the product.  

[Troll Daddy]

Puig fired by his agent ... Scott Boras come on down

[Stradling]

Name a player that would be fired by his agent, if you got to choose ten players out of the 700 or so in the league, 90% of the lists would have Puig on it.  

[Troll Daddy]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Name a player that would be fired by his agent, if you got to choose ten players out of the 700 or so in the league, 90% of the lists would have Puig on it.  

I doubt Puig is concerned at all about being fired ... it’s funny when you think about it. 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Troll Daddy said:

I doubt Puig is concerned at all about being fired ... it’s funny when you think about it. 

I think it is funny, but it just goes to show you what an asshole he is.  But you are right, he doesn't care that he was fired.  

[Troll Daddy]

Just now, Stradling said:

I think it is funny, but it just goes to show you what an asshole he is.  But you are right, he doesn't care that he was fired.  

Actually he’s a great guy ... and ambassador for the game.

nice try

[Blarg]

4 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Actually he’s a great guy ... and ambassador for the game.

nice try

 

An obvious choice for ambassador to a shithole. Trump gave his agent a call but unfortunately he got no response.

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Blarg

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Actually he’s a great guy ... and ambassador for the game.

nice try

No, he's not.  Nice troll.  I am sure agents are firing "great guys" all the time.  

[Troll Daddy]

Just now, Stradling said:

No, he's not.  Nice troll.  I am sure agents are firing "great guys" all the time.  

You know nothing about him or probably care too. Sounds more like your trolling me. Do your homework before you pop off . 

 

[VariousCrap]

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

 

To me it means this is a fantastic buyer's market right now for a premium player like Martinez.  He would be a steal at 5/150.

 

First of all, that would be an overpay.  He is only a couple years away from being a full time DH.  You don't give that type of money to a guy who will be a DH the majority of his contract.  Second, he wants 7/210.  Third, he has an offer of 5/125 and has said that is not enough.

[VariousCrap]

11 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Actually he’s a great guy ... and ambassador for the game.

nice try

 

You. Are. An. Idiot.

[VariousCrap]

17 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I think it is funny, but it just goes to show you what an asshole he is.  But you are right, he doesn't care that he was fired.  

 

His agency just threw away tons of money to get rid of him.  You don't do that for a good guy.

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

You know nothing about him or probably care too. Sounds more like your trolling me. Do your homework before you pop off . 

 

I have seen him act out numerous times.  I know of his trials and tribulations.  I also know he is an immature asshat that has an issue being a good teammate.  There is a reason he is constantly in trade rumors, and it isn't because he isn't talented.  Management doesn't care for him, his team mates don't care for him.  He can be a distraction.  Now his agent fires him, so you tell me, why is he a great guy?  Oh because you are a troll.  

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

 

His agency just threw away tons of money to get rid of him.  You don't do that for a good guy.

Apparently you do that for a "great guy", not a good guy.  

[Troll Daddy]

3 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

 

You. Are. An. Idiot.

This is a Angels forum and shouldn’t be about Puig but ... he’s a big hit in the community. Spends a lot of time with charitable organizations ( more than normal) and working with the kids. He’s also well liked by him teammates and coaches. His career didn’t start out that way ... we all make mistakes.