Thoughts and Prayers

[ten ocho recon scout]

9 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

News conference now.

He was a veteran of the Marine Corps. Mental health 'experts' were called to his home in April and cleared him. The Glock he used was purchased legally. 

"Experts". Not quite.

Heres the thing....you cant simply 5150 someone for being crazy.

This would be akin to arresting anyone who hasnt broken any laws.

Threat to self (youve made overt plan or attempt to kill or seriously injure yourself). Threat to others (where you are diagnosed with a mental illness, not you threatened to kill your wife or neighbor but arent mentally ill....otherwise thats a crime), or gravely disabled (you have no ability to feed or care for yourself, due to mental illness, not being poor).

Theres a few hundred thousand crazy people in california alone. Ranging from "hes a little weird" to "batshit crazy". But if they dont fit into one of those categorys, legally, theres not really anything that can be done.

Funny enough, while the "batshit crazy" are left alone out there, the overdramatic 16 year old that makes the bullshit suicide statement on twitter and cuts his wrist (superficially) goes every time. (As a general rule, almost nobody tells anyone else when theyre gonna kill themself....ive seen maybe 3 notes in my career.....probably 100 suicides).

[Rico]

The system failed because he wasn't properly diagnosed. But also part of the system worked because he wasn't able to purchase a weapon with a much larger clip size. A lot of the kids were saying that after the initial burst of shots there was a pause and that was when they were able to make their escape. 

[UndertheHalo]

The failure is that he was allowed to purchase a weapon. 

[Tank]

5 hours ago, Thomas said:

After what point does the world turn into a constant battlefield where you're always being shot at?

leave chicago out of this.

[ten ocho recon scout]

9 minutes ago, Rico said:

The system failed because he wasn't properly diagnosed. But also part of the system worked because he wasn't able to purchase a weapon with a much larger clip size. A lot of the kids were saying that after the initial burst of shots there was a pause and that was when they were able to make their escape. 

To be fair, its too early to say anything failed, and improper diagnoses. Simply because all we know is that mental health evaluated him earlier this year. No background behind it. (Im sure more will come out later, but Ill wait until that info is available).

I know that sounds like im downplaying culpability, but im not. What im pointing out is that its not as black and white as "he was mentally ill, he should have been stopped."

There are way more parameters that have to be met than people realize. Just making a vanilla scenario here, but lets say someone goes through a bad divorce. They withdraw from friends, lose weight from not eating etc. Is that enough to lodge them into a mental health hold? Well, not necessarily.

But lets say a few months go by, and said person jumps off the freeway overpass and ends up in several different pieces. Is that the "blame" on someone who didnt step in 4 months prior?

And ill add that plenty of people who are diagnosed stop taking their meds. But we cant force anyone to take them.

In stuff like this, there is no perfect solution. Unless were thinking of going to 1940s germany route.

[Stradling]

2 hours ago, Lou said:

Official Cat Thingy Scoreboard:

Responses -  3

Different Definitions -  3

I use it to call the poster a pussy.  

[Tank]

13 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Heres the thing....you cant simply 5150 someone for being crazy.

This would be akin to arresting anyone who hasnt broken any laws.

Threat to self (youve made overt plan or attempt to kill or seriously injure yourself). Threat to others (where you are diagnosed with a mental illness, not you threatened to kill your wife or neighbor but arent mentally ill....otherwise thats a crime), or gravely disabled (you have no ability to feed or care for yourself, due to mental illness, not being poor).

Theres a few hundred thousand crazy people in california alone. Ranging from "hes a little weird" to "batshit crazy". But if they dont fit into one of those categorys, legally, theres not really anything that can be done.

maybe combat vets who come home with PTSD shouldn't be allowed to purchase/own guns until cleared medically.

i know that idea might upset a few folks here, but there's a mental health issue in some of these shootings that has to be dealt with. maybe this is a starting point, and maybe this can be done without infringing on someone's rights.

[ten ocho recon scout]

9 minutes ago, Tank said:

maybe combat vets who come home with PTSD shouldn't be allowed to purchase/own guns until cleared medically.

i know that idea might upset a few folks here, but there's a mental health issue in some of these shootings that has to be dealt with. maybe this is a starting point, and maybe this can be done without infringing on someone's rights.

Per the first part, Tanker, i completely agree...but...how exactly do you do that? Meaning, PTSD isnt a black and white thing. Sometimes it wont show up for years. You can come home totally at peace with what youve seen or done, but years later have it start to resurface. 

Think about your school. There are kids there who have had really bad things happen to them at home...but you dont know it, because they dont tell you. Then years later they have problems as adults.

Per the second part, Im all for it. I would love to take all the crazy people I come across at work and put them away somewhere, especially the ones we know are ticking time bombs. 

But i cant. I can only enforce laws, not make them..

[UndertheHalo]

19 minutes ago, Tank said:

maybe combat vets who come home with PTSD shouldn't be allowed to purchase/own guns until cleared medically.

i know that idea might upset a few folks here, but there's a mental health issue in some of these shootings that has to be dealt with. maybe this is a starting point, and maybe this can be done without infringing on someone's rights.

It’s not a starting point.  Nothing is going to happen or change.  Rinse; wash, repeat. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

Heres a story from this last week.

A batshit crazy guy has lived with mom all his life. Hes in his 50s now, elderly mom died earlier this year. He went off the deep end.

Weve been to the house 50 or so times since she died a few months ago. Neighbors basically being held hostage. He comes out to his driveway, sets up a guitar and an amp, blasts music for 10 minutes, then goes inside. We show up, he wont answer the door.

Tire screech marks all throught the neighborhood. All from him. Driving like an asshole, trying to mess with everyone. Dumps trash all over the street, throughout the neighborhood.  Wears old camo fatigues. Looks like a methed out 50 something year old grateful dead guy. Always a dick when he does talk to us, but never anything we could do about it.

On a few occasions hes been seen with a gun in a holster. Obviously this gets our attention. Problem is, its in the holster all the time...never points it at anyone...and is always in his garage (door open) when he does it.

 No crime.

Anyway, we finally put our undercover guys on it. He could always spot them. So we set up a vehicle with a camera down the street...trying to record all the petty crap he does every day, in order to try and make a case against him (because we cant enforce petty stuff we dont witness).

So a few days ago, we stopped him, and were able to arrest him for carrying the concealed pistol. Im not sure about the specifics, but hes not allowed to own firearms. Wish i had more details, but that never came up the times i had been there and ran him.

Anyway, we did a search of his home. (I wasnt there, not sure why they searched the home, i assume a warrant, but maybe welfare check / 5150).

House was trashed. Batshit crazy spray paint over everything in the house. Lots of it "187 pigs", but also other ramblings.

Then we found a crawl space under the house....in all the vents, he had reinforced with half assed sandbags (with views to the street...where we always walk up from). 

He also barricaded all the windows in the house, with furniture, trash, etc.

He also had scoped rifles left next to a few of the upstairs windows...and we recovered an AR and a AK. Dont have specifics on if he bought them legal, why he cant own guns, etc etc. 

 But yeah.....id love to have been able to put that dude away months ago. But couldnt for noise complaints.

 

[Lou]

holy crap crap, recon.

question: is he white?

[Jason]

1 hour ago, Tank said:

maybe combat vets who come home with PTSD shouldn't be allowed to purchase/own guns until cleared medically.

i know that idea might upset a few folks here, but there's a mental health issue in some of these shootings that has to be dealt with. maybe this is a starting point, and maybe this can be done without infringing on someone's rights.

Groups like the ACLU and the American with Disabilities Act will never allow it. There is already such a negative label that's associated with mental illness that people will not seek help so they aren't labeled. There are thousands of people that have PTSD that will never do what this man did. The mental illness thing is not a black and white issue. Obviously there are mentally ill that are dangerous but not everyone with an illness is. The problem lies in the lack of treatment for these people. 

[Jason]

1 hour ago, UndertheHalo said:

The failure is that he was allowed to purchase a weapon. 

He may very well have purchased that gun before he was deployed  or developed PTSD . Why would it have been a failure to sell it to him?

[UndertheHalo]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

He may very well have purchased that gun before he was deployed. Why would it have been a failure to sell it to him?

In the circumstance that he happened to own the gun before, then sure.  In that case it’s just bad luck.  I’m not sure if it’s you, but I know I’ve debated with others here about whether people who are mentally ill should be allowed to purchase weapons.  This is my issue with the 2nd amendment.  It makes it so buying a gun is some holy fundamental right.  I just don’t believe in that.  I think the amendment is deeply flawed in today’s world.  There’s no argument that will convince me otherwise.  

A person who has some mental issue should not be allowed to touch a gun legally.  Period.  Their gun rights be damned. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

42 minutes ago, Lou said:

holy crap crap, recon.

question: is he white?

Like the driven snow.

But haggard white. Like desert white.

[Jason]

9 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

In the circumstance that he happened to own the gun before, then sure.  In that case it’s just bad luck.  I’m not sure if it’s you, but I know I’ve debated with others here about whether people who are mentally ill should be allowed to purchase weapons.  This is my issue with the 2nd amendment.  It makes it so buying a gun is some holy fundamental right.  I just don’t believe in that.  I think the amendment is deeply flawed in today’s world.  There’s no argument that will convince me otherwise.  

A person who has some mental issue should not be allowed to touch a gun legally.  Period.  Their gun rights be damned. 

Does the actual diagnosis matter to you?

[mtangelsfan]

5 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

In the circumstance that he happened to own the gun before, then sure.  In that case it’s just bad luck.  I’m not sure if it’s you, but I know I’ve debated with others here about whether people who are mentally ill should be allowed to purchase weapons.  This is my issue with the 2nd amendment.  It makes it so buying a gun is some holy fundamental right.  I just don’t believe in that.  I think the amendment is deeply flawed in today’s world.  There’s no argument that will convince me otherwise.  

A person who has some mental issue should not be allowed to touch a gun legally.  Period.  Their gun rights be damned. 

How would you define that?

[UndertheHalo]

7 minutes ago, Jason said:

Does the actual diagnosis matter to you?

Not really.  If someone needs to be hospitalized or is declared disabled at some point because they’re having or have had or suffer from a life long mental issue.  I feel badly for them.   But also, I don’t really give a shit about their right to a gun.  Are there some exceptions you could point out.  Sure I guess.  But largely I don’t think so.   I care a lot more about eliminating a potential avenue of threat to the community.  

If you care more about the gun right.  Fine.  If you think this shit is the price we have to pay for that right. Fine.  You’re entitled to that opinion.  I disagree with you. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by UndertheHalo

[Lou]

18 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Like the driven snow.

But haggard white. Like desert white.

the term for that is calswhite 

[Jason]

8 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Not really.  If someone needs to be hospitalized or is declared disabled at some point because they’re having or have had or suffer from a life long mental issue.  I feel badly for them.   But also, I don’t really give a shit about their right to a gun.  Are there some exceptions you could point out.  Sure I guess.  But largely I don’t think so.   I care a lot more about the safety of the community. 

If you care more about the gun right.  Fine.  If you think this shit is the price we have to pay for that right. Fine.  You’re entitled to that opinion.  I disagree with you. 

You do realize that there are a lot of mental illnesses that do not require hospitalization or make a person dangerous right? As for for people that can’t function without assistance or are prone to violence because of their mental state, they should not have a gun. I agree with that. To say ALL people with any mental illness should lose a constitutional right is not right. No court would uphold that. 

[UndertheHalo]

6 hours ago, Jason said:

You do realize that there are a lot of mental illnesses that do not require hospitalization or make a personal dangerous right? As for for people that can’t function without assistance or are prone to violence because of their mental state should not have a gun. I agree with that. To say ALL people with any mental illness should lose a constitutional right is not right. No court would uphold that. 

Nobody is a problem until they are.  And I already told you I think the 2nd amendment is bunk.  We aren’t debating whether a court would hold anything up. 

First of all, there are people on this board who argue that people who have been declared disabled shouldn’t have their gun rights taken.  Or they want to nit pick details about it.  I have no interest in that.  2nd, I don’t need to be informed that there are a wide array of mental illnesses with varying degrees of severity.  I’ll give you an example   I think a diagnosed OCD person shouldn’t be allowed a gun.  That person potentially has never been hospitalized.  They also, may not be declared disabled.  The fact is they suffer from a potentially severe and unpredictable mental issue.  Like I said, they aren’t a problem until they are.  There are all sorts of conditions like this.  Are there some exceptions ?  Sure.  But I’m not really that concerned with the details.  I don’t make the laws.  But I do want something like that done.  

In this country, the gun people are not moved by literally 6 year olds getting shot up.  So you don’t need to worry.  You’re in good shape with your guns. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by UndertheHalo

[Jason]

At least you are willing to admit you are against the 2nd amendment. Most liberals are too but they try to act like they support it so they don’t sound unconstitutional. I can respect that

[Make Angels Great Again]

Imagine if ADD was grounds for having your 2A rights taken away for life.

 

And you think ADD is diagnosed too often now? Ha.

[floplag]

It takes a guy like this for people to even talk about mental illness.... makes sense considering all the other narratives are void in this case but damn, what do people think the source of almost all of this is?

[Jason]

23 minutes ago, Make Angels Great Again said:

Imagine if ADD was grounds for having your 2A rights taken away for life.

 

And you think ADD is diagnosed too often now? Ha.

Imagine if mental problems were grounds for losing your right to vote, go to church, get a trial with a lawyer, have due process, etc...