AngelsWin.com Today: The Scioscia Era – Where did it go wrong?

[ten ocho recon scout]

8 hours ago, nate said:

Dipoto was just incompetent, he was a huge mess when it came to running the org.

I can't believe nobody has shown any love for Ken Hill and his perfect Eddie Murphy mustache.

Remember when getting guys like Hill was exciting? 

Hill was supposed to fill the gap until brian cooper and seth etherton became "the big 2".

ALLEN Allen allen.....WATSON Watson watson....

[nate]

Seth Etherton!!!

[ten ocho recon scout]

6 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Pep Harris had the best real name since Reginald Martinez Jackson..   His given name was Hernando Petrocelli Harris.

Hernando Petrocelli? Was he a paisan, or a paisa?

[ten ocho recon scout]

5 minutes ago, nate said:

Seth Etherton!!!

Remember the hype for that guy? Geez....of those guys, only showenweis (cant spell his name) made it, and even he was a let down.

[nate]

Just now, ten ocho recon scout said:

Remember the hype for that guy? Geez....of those guys, only showenweis (cant spell his name) made it, and even he was a let down.

Dude I completely forgot about him until you mentioned him.  Schoenweis and Washburn both ended up being good enough to stick around the MLB team.

[UndertheHalo]

On 5/23/2017 at 10:39 AM, Dave Saltzer said:

I really think you can put the blame truly on one person more than anyone else. I once wrote an article about it and then never published it because it was a bit morose and offensive. His name: Andrew Thomas Gallo, the drunk driving scumbag who killed Nick Adenhart. When you think about all the moves that were made as a result (trades for pitching, etc.) that might not have been done, or deals that could have been made if we didn't make trades, that one less set the organization back 6 years or so. I don't want to retrace it all, but we would be an entirely different club if Gallo had stayed home that night or taken an uber like any responsible human being. Instead, he can rot in jail for life, as I have no respect for drunk drivers.

 

The next biggest share of the blame was the complete folding and collapse of our international scouting and player development. We got caught in a "scandal" that everyone in the industry was doing (and in many cases still basically do) because unfortunately, for Latin players, there are too many barriers under the current system (I'm a fan of a second draft for international players). In a broader context, it's been a failure to fully invest in scouting and player development as much as we should have, which has affected the team in many ways, both in drafting players and having prospects to trade. I don't get the point of spending tens of millions on one ML player without fully committing a few more million to make sure the players in development become the best they can be. 

 

After that, hiring Tony Reagins was a big mistake. Although i disagree with this premise, in this industry, so much of the coaching staff's and front office staff's reputation rests on their success on the field (however, this is slowly starting to change, especially with front office people, as baseball analytics are becoming more dominant). Tony Reagins was not going to be respected by the old school guys at the time and didn't have the new wave of analytics that were really just starting to revolutionize the whole industry. So, his hands were tied in too many ways--except for one. He got rid of Eddie Bane, which I believe was a big blow to our scouting department, which as noted above, played a big role in our lack of success. 

 

Finally, if we are to blame anyone or anything else, it was the failure to fully litigate and win a fraud claim against Gary Matthews Jr. At the time, I said all the clubs should be willing to pony up to money to fight the lawsuit and up to $1 million to pay off the contract (leaving Arte to potentially pickup the remainder of it--around $20 million) to make an absolute statement against PEDs. Instead, they didn't litigate it, and PEDs and PED enhanced stats and players have cost almost every organization millions more. If they had litigated and won the case against GMJr, the Angels would have had a better and stronger case to negate the remaining money on Hamilton's contract. But, because they didn't fight that one as thoroughly as I believe they should have, they had a weaker hand to play against Hamilton.

That would be my take on things in a nutshell.

 

i'd love to read that article one day.  pretty interesting stuff, morose as it may be.

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Remember the hype for that guy? Geez....of those guys, only showenweis (cant spell his name) made it, and even he was a let down.

Seth Etherton was one of my first ever grand scale internet hissy-fits....  He was the one guy I didn't want and sure enough...  with the 18th pick the Angels take....  Seth Etherton..  ARRRRGH.........  His entire game was built around throwing a palm ball, it was his go to K pitch all through college and really -- it was an amazing pitch.  The problem was the seams on college balls were a lot bigger than MLB balls and there was NO way he would replicate the sort of movement he got in college as a Major Leaguer.  BTW, the guy I wanted them to draft and wrote a freaking essay on prior to the draft was a fat kid from the Bay area named CC Sabathia...    As per usual, Stephen Smith was quick to point out I was a nobody on the internet and the Angels knew what they were doing.   Nope!

[Jay]

Not nearly as much Scioscia hate in this thread as I expected.

What a difference a year makes.

 

[Angel Oracle]

Which scout, or was it Arte the scout, thought signing one year (one catch) wonder GMJHGH was a good idea? 

[mrwicked]

that was a depressing read.

case study in how a perennial basement dweller org makes it way to the elite ranks, and then spirals back down into obscurity.

you know what is scary? imagine we don't have trout.

 

[CaliAngel]

43 minutes ago, mrwicked said:

that was a depressing read.

case study in how a perennial basement dweller org makes it way to the elite ranks, and then spirals back down into obscurity.

you know what is scary? imagine we don't have trout.

 

If we don't have Trout I'm not sure why I'd watch the Angels.

[TroutCron]

One other point, the signing of Baldoquin by DiPoto destroyed the Angel's ability to sign other international players. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Seth Etherton was one of my first ever grand scale internet hissy-fits....  He was the one guy I didn't want and sure enough...  with the 18th pick the Angels take....  Seth Etherton..  ARRRRGH.........  His entire game was built around throwing a palm ball, it was his go to K pitch all through college and really -- it was an amazing pitch.  The problem was the seams on college balls were a lot bigger than MLB balls and there was NO way he would replicate the sort of movement he got in college as a Major Leaguer.  BTW, the guy I wanted them to draft and wrote a freaking essay on prior to the draft was a fat kid from the Bay area named CC Sabathia...    As per usual, Stephen Smith was quick to point out I was a nobody on the internet and the Angels knew what they were doing.   Nope!

Stephen smith, was that "future angels"?

[Brandon]

pep harris is a good pull. he was on those shitty mid/late 90's teams when jason dickson represented us in the all-star game because we needed a rep.

and my favorite non-black angels name is still reggie willits. dudes were talking about him on here before i watched him and he sounded like a fast black dude....like another figgins. i thought we had the next kenny loft until i saw he was white and wore #77....those random ass september call up numbers are always the kiss of death if worn regularly.

[Inside Pitch]

6 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Stephen smith, was that "future angels"?

The one and only --  guy was always a schmuck.

[Inside Pitch]

6 hours ago, Brandon said:

pep harris is a good pull. he was on those shitty mid/late 90's teams when jason dickson represented us in the all-star game because we needed a rep.

That's not really fair to Dickson.  Dickson was legit good..  his ERA at the break that year was 3.41 while the league average was near 5.00.   What Terry Collins did to him was criminal and cost the Angels what should have been a centerpiece for the rotation.  

Dickson had flown through the minors, reached the majors in his second full season.  Every single MLE out at the time projected him as a number two at worst -- he was a legit workhorse too, he went from pitching in college to throwing 217 innings in his first minor league season as a 21 year old and followed that up with 228 innings in his second season..   People understand how crazy a hitters park SLC is -- Vancouver wasn't any better... His ERA at AAA his final season in the minors was almost 2.25 runs below the league average for that season.

But Terry Collins felt he needed to pitch through pain and toughen up...  

[Blarg]

On 5/24/2017 at 5:51 AM, Lou said:

Mickey Calloway had a black guy's name 

That name is so British I'm betting he has an overbite with crooked teeth.

[Angel Oracle]

3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

The one and only --  guy was always a schmuck.

Hence, the "45 year-old bat boy" gloss, I wonder if being on the pre-game show a few times in the early 2000s went to his head.

[Angel Oracle]

35 minutes ago, Blarg said:

That name is so British I'm betting he has an overbite with crooked teeth.

I am so envisioning Terry Thomas in Mad, Mad, Mad, World.   Thanks a lot, Blarg.

[Brandon]

3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

That's not really fair to Dickson.  Dickson was legit good..  his ERA at the break that year was 3.41 while the league average was near 5.00.   What Terry Collins did to him was criminal and cost the Angels what should have been a centerpiece for the rotation.  

Dickson had flown through the minors, reached the majors in his second full season.  Every single MLE out at the time projected him as a number two at worst -- he was a legit workhorse too, he went from pitching in college to throwing 217 innings in his first minor league season as a 21 year old and followed that up with 228 innings in his second season..   People understand how crazy a hitters park SLC is -- Vancouver wasn't any better... His ERA at AAA his final season in the minors was almost 2.25 runs below the league average for that season.

But Terry Collins felt he needed to pitch through pain and toughen up...  

i don't even remember to be honest. i was in high school during this time, the angels sucked, and the internet wasn't what it is today to keep up with players. i didn't follow the team too closely back then.

[Inside Pitch]

35 minutes ago, Brandon said:

i don't even remember to be honest. i was in high school during this time, the angels sucked, and the internet wasn't what it is today to keep up with players. i didn't follow the team too closely back then.

Yeah -- no biggie.   Dickson is really one of the dark spots in Angels history.  Not sure if it was just Stoneman, or maybe a reaction to what happened with him, but the Angels completely changed the way they handled their minor league arms shortly after they wrecked him.

[Dave Saltzer]

13 hours ago, TroutCron said:

One other point, the signing of Baldoquin by DiPoto destroyed the Angel's ability to sign other international players. 

It wasn't the signing of Baldoquin that was so bad. It was that once we went all in on one player, we should have gone all in on several that years. Yes, it would have been a lot of money, but that's what we would have to do in order to justify not being able to sign any players for 2 years. When one makes such a big risk, it's wise to spread it out over several players rather than one. What we did is akin to just drafting a player in the first round and not drafting anyone beyond that.

 

At the time, I very much wanted us to sign Moncada. I thought he was the premiere talent that year. If we had burned our ability to sign international players and had gotten both of them, the apparent success of Moncada would negate the failure of Baldoquin. But, by putting all our eggs on him, we made the move far more risky, and it hasn't paid off.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Yep. Moncada seemed like a foregone conclysion after we signed baldo. Werent they close friends, too?

Memory lane with jason dickson stories. The pitching staff is unlucky as hell today, but those late 90s teams were just a year after year let down. Washed up guys (blackjack mcdowell) and prospects who never panned out 

And old number 31

[ten ocho recon scout]

Wash and ramin ortiz (baby pedro) were the first home grown pitchers in my time (too young for me to consider early finley) who panned out pitching wise in my time.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Dave Saltzer said:

It wasn't the signing of Baldoquin that was so bad. It was that once we went all in on one player, we should have gone all in on several that years. Yes, it would have been a lot of money, but that's what we would have to do in order to justify not being able to sign any players for 2 years. When one makes such a big risk, it's wise to spread it out over several players rather than one. What we did is akin to just drafting a player in the first round and not drafting anyone beyond that.

At the time, I very much wanted us to sign Moncada. I thought he was the premiere talent that year. If we had burned our ability to sign international players and had gotten both of them, the apparent success of Moncada would negate the failure of Baldoquin. But, by putting all our eggs on him, we made the move far more risky, and it hasn't paid off.

No amount of rationalization will change the fact that it was an epic failure in scouting and the repercussions have carried over until this July...   Dipoto made the decision to sign Baldoquin knowing full well it would lock them out of future signing periods .... that meant he willingly chose Baldoquin over everyone in his signing period through this year...   Yeah signing others would have made it less of an issue -- but there is no downplaying how awful a decision it was or its impact on the organization.   The rest of MLB all scratched their head at the signing, meanwhile the Angels publicly stated the guy they signed wasn't raw and simply needed at bats...... epic failure doesn't even begin to describe it.  

Edit:  What I'm saying is that arguing that the team didn't spend enough isn't really a valid excuse -- spending money hasn't been a problem.  The problem was they spent that money foolishly...   When you consider that Baldo took more to sign than Vlad Jr did ...  well...   Speaks volumes IMO.