Teams want Shoemaker/Skaggs, Brian Dozier a real possibility? (Ken Rosenthal)

[Chuck]

18 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Skaggs for Cesar Hernandez?

No way! 

[totdprods]

Twinsies are needing help at catcher too. So, you could throw Bandy and Perez into the discussion as well. Plenty of decent FA catchers on the market in Castro, Avila, Saltalamacchia....

Skaggs, Cron, Perez/Bandy + a prospect or two* for Dozier, Hughes/Santana**, and Mauer?

*dependent on quality of SP/amount of money transferring

**dependent on quality of prospects

Clears a ton of salary for MIN's new GM and replaces with younger, cheaper talent. Angels get an arm back to eat innings, a big improvement at second, a more versatile and consistent 1B/DH and another lefty bat. Bloats payroll for quite awhile though.

 

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, TroutField said:

So we were terrible last year because our pitching was hot garbage and we had no depth, so let's go ahead and trade one or two of our starters for a second baseman. Makes absolutely no sense. I would rather have Cowart at second with Skaggs and Shoe in the rotation. 

That is certainly one way to look at it.  Another way to look at it is those pitchers were part of the "hot garbage" so what is the harm in trading one of them.  

[totdprods]

10 minutes ago, TroutField said:

So we were terrible last year because our pitching was hot garbage and we had no depth, so let's go ahead and trade one or two of our starters for a second baseman. Makes absolutely no sense. I would rather have Cowart at second with Skaggs and Shoe in the rotation. 

I'm sure if we deal one of them, we'd either be getting an expensive SP back as well, or signing one. I know Phil Hughes, Edinson Volquez, Ivan Nova, etc aren't the same class as Shoe or Skaggs, but a Dozier, Hernandez, or Kinsler would be a massive upgrade at second. We have two SPs returning next season, a handful of intriguing SPs battling for #5, and an extremely deep SP FA class next year.

[Stradling]

I have no idea whether or not Nova is in the same class as Skaggs or Shoemaker. 

[totdprods]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

I have no idea whether or not Nova is in the same class as Skaggs or Shoemaker. 

I don't think he is, but one of Dozier, Kinsler, Hernandez are definitely a couple classes above Cowart, Petit, and Pennington.

[Hubs]

No trading a starter for a 2B. Not unless they replace it in the rotation with a free agent.

 

[CanadianHalo]

Well at first glance it appears Dozier would fit in really nicely here!

He hit .196 in high leverage situations and .241 with men in scoring! 

30 of his home runs were solo shots last season. 

[Stradling]

So we don't give credit for RBI, but we give a guy a hard time for having 30 solo home runs.  

[totdprods]

8 minutes ago, CanadianHalo said:

30 of his home runs were solo shots last season. 

I think 23 of the HRs Weaver allowed were solo shots.

[mtangelsfan]

33 minutes ago, TroutField said:

So we were terrible last year because our pitching was hot garbage and we had no depth, so let's go ahead and trade one or two of our starters for a second baseman. Makes absolutely no sense. I would rather have Cowart at second with Skaggs and Shoe in the rotation. 

This is exactly how I feel.

[mulwin444]

Dozier was having a typical Dozier-like season (.240 .340 OBP .750 OPS) until he went ape-shit fomr August through mid-September blasting 20+ HRs.  If you trade for him, you'd probably want to anticipate .240/.340/.750 OPS 4-ish WAR again with anything more being a bonus.  Is that worth Skaggs or Shoemaker, essentially a 3 or 4 starter?  Hmmm, hard to say.  The BP was a bigger issue than even the starting pitching but starting pitching is still a major issue in terms of depth of talent.  I don't think I would do the deal and spend less of my tradeable assets on a slightly above replacement level to replace a position that was negative WAR and keep my pitching depth. 

[CanadianHalo]

Kinsler hit .268 in high leverage situations and .319 with men in scoring and .314 with men on base fwiw.

I'd have to think Kinsler would be cheaper to acquire. 

High leverage and men in scoring are two of the first categories/stats I look at when I'm looking at a guy. Just the two I prefer the most. It's these two stats that makes me want Cespedes so badly every year and a reason why I was pretty sour on the Heyward idea.

 

[Angelsjunky]

I don't think Dozier has another 40 HR in him...probably a more likely projection for next year is .250/.320/.480 with 30 HR and solid defense...which would be a huge upgrade at 2B. But at the cost of the team's second or third best starter, plus prospects? Hard to say. All of a sudden 60% of the rotation is made up of some combination of Nolasco, Chavez, Meyer, Smith, Banuelos, Campos, and Oberholtzer.

Also, re: Thaiss, I thought you can't trade a player within a year of them being drafted?

[Second Base]

2 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

I don't think Dozier has another 40 HR in him...probably a more likely projection for next year is .250/.320/.480 with 30 HR and solid defense...which would be a huge upgrade at 2B. But at the cost of the team's second or third best starter, plus prospects? Hard to say. All of a sudden 60% of the rotation is made up of some combination of Nolasco, Chavez, Meyer, Smith, Banuelos, Campos, and Oberholtzer.

Also, re: Thaiss, I thought you can't trade a player within a year of them being drafted?

They revised that because of Trea Turner. The Padres had him as a player to be named later in an offseason trade, but he had to remain with the Padres all the way through June of the next season until he was officially sent to the Nats.

So now prospects can be traded something like 3 months after they're signed.

[totdprods]

36 minutes ago, TroutField said:

So we were terrible last year because our pitching was hot garbage and we had no depth, so let's go ahead and trade one or two of our starters for a second baseman. Makes absolutely no sense. I would rather have Cowart at second with Skaggs and Shoe in the rotation. 

More than half of our 89 starts last year were from guys who were awful and (likely) won't be starting for us in '17: Weaver, Santiago, Chacin, Lincecum, Wright, Oberholtzer, Huff, and Rasmus. 

Downside is our current rotation only started 59 games for us last year - Shoe, Richards, Skaggs, Nolasco, and Meyer. Chavez didn't start any in '16.

I know it's oversimplifying things, but it goes to show that a lot of our pitching struggles last year were due to not only injuries, but also our best pitchers getting injured. If we can muster 100 GS from 4 of those 5 names, we are already in significantly better shape. It's also while I feel we should focus on signing good arms for the pen and brining in a very durable #4-5 who can almost assuredly pitch 25-30 games, even if he's just an average talent. If our rotation can just remain stable we will be in very good shape.

[Angelsjunky]

Whoops by the Padres. Trea Turner is awesome.

[Dave Saltzer]

If we are doing this, I'd prefer to do a more expansive trade of Cron, Shoemaker, and Ward for Dozier and Mauer. That would benefit both teams. Dozier replaces Cron's power and solves our hole at 2B. Mauer replaces Cron at 1B and provides a left-handed bat, something Eppler has said he wants. When Mauer needs some rest, or the matchups are better, Marte gets ABs at 1B and provides more power. They get a replacement for 1B and replace the power they lost in Dozier, and they get a long-term solution to C and a pitcher. When Mauer is done, we could move Thaiss into 1B. Mauer's contract runs through 2018.

 

Yes, we'd be losing a pitcher, but we'd be solving a lot of problems and can still sign someone like Nova. I think we'd still be under the luxury tax still, but am not 100% sure.

[Stradling]

Sign Ivan Nova then make a trade to solidify 2nd base for a few years.  A trade I wouldn't like, but I could see happening is Shoe for KInsler.  Shoe is from Michigan and Detroit is trying to shed payroll.  We would get a 2nd baseman that is pretty darn good, but only signed through this coming year.  Also he is a dick.  

[Make Angels Great Again]

We shouldn't be trading any starting pitching. None. Do you guys not remember all the injuries last year? The more quality SP the better. 2B is not more important than that.

[totdprods]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Sign Ivan Nova then make a trade to solidify 2nd base for a few years.  A trade I wouldn't like, but I could see happening is Shoe for KInsler.  Shoe is from Michigan and Detroit is trying to shed payroll.  We would get a 2nd baseman that is pretty darn good, but only signed through this coming year.  Also he is a dick.  

I hate Ian Kinsler, but that would be a good and reasonable trade. Detroit gets a cheap, solid SP under control - Kinsler is a FA after next year. Being from MI, they'd have a shot at extending Shoe for a good rate sometime down the line. Maybe if we took Sanchez off their hands they'd throw in a prospect or KRod.

[Stradling]

Let me know when we have quality pitching to be afraid of losing to upgrade in other areas.  If we traded one and signed one we haven't really lost anything.  If Skaggs or Shoe could be part of a package to land Dozier and then we signed Nova, I am pretty sure the gain in Dozier from Pennington outweighs the loss from Skaggs/Shoe to Nova.  

[totdprods]

2 minutes ago, Make Angels Great Again said:

We shouldn't be trading any starting pitching. None. Do you guys not remember all the injuries last year? The more quality SP the better. 2B is not more important than that.

We'd presumably be signing or acquiring another SP. I doubt Eppler makes a deal involving a SP without acquiring another one at some point. 

[totdprods]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Let me know when we have quality pitching to be afraid of losing to upgrade in other areas.  If we traded one and signed one we haven't really lost anything.  If Skaggs or Shoe could be part of a package to land Dozier and then we signed Nova, I am pretty sure the gain in Dozier from Pennington outweighs the loss from Skaggs/Shoe to Nova.  

I for one am also much more intrigued by our current #5 depth of Chavez, Ramirez, Meyer, Banuelos, Smith, Wright, and Campos than I was with anything we had last year.

Obviously catastrophic injuries to #1-4 would sink us again, but I already feel our depth is light years better than it was after April '16. Much younger and more promising. And I bet we still add to that collection.

[Chuck]

7 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Sign Ivan Nova then make a trade to solidify 2nd base for a few years.  A trade I wouldn't like, but I could see happening is Shoe for KInsler.  Shoe is from Michigan and Detroit is trying to shed payroll.  We would get a 2nd baseman that is pretty darn good, but only signed through this coming year.  Also he is a dick.  

Yeah but he'd be our dick! 

I'd also be for that trade, but like you said, if only we snatch up another arm via FA. 

How many years does Kinsler still have on his contract though?