End of the golden era

[ten ocho recon scout]

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/7222200/v7041201/laa-bos-gm-3-vlad-comes-through-with-go-ahead-single

For whatever reason, vlads basehit against boston in the 09 alds popped into my head so i looked up the vid. Forgot how good of a game that was.

As lame as the this year and the last few have been, its kind of crazy to look at how stacked that 09 team was. Also to see how many things went right, got the lucky break.

Also kind of depressing though. You see how much home grown talent was on that team. How many savy moves the FO made. The rivera trade. The abreau signing. Figgins becoming a beast at 3B and leadoff. The obvious FA successes of vladdy and torii.

A good clip in there of aybar at his prime. Lackey as an established vet, with weaver being the next to take the torch, etc etc. Brought back good memories, but also a bummer to hear rory...

Im not one for superstition, but morales breaking his ankle on a walkoff slam was literally the point everything started to crumble. Its obviously bigger than that. The poor drafting after the core left for free agency that winter, poor spending afterwards etc is what did us in. But kendrys is like the timestamp on when it started downward. 

We drafted trout that year, too...

How in the hell did we go from doing almost everything right back then to where were at now? Outside of 2002, 09 was the best year weve had. And ironically the end of the good times.

[California Cajun]

09 is my favorite team because it won 97 games despite losing every starter for at least a month plus Vlad and Torii.  Adenhart was killed, which was my most difficult moment as a fan and, I'm  sure, the players.

What happened after 09 has probably  been hashed and rehashed here.  

[Ohtaniland]

Even if the 2016 team was healthy it's not as good as some of the 2002-2009 teams. 

[zenmaster]

Look at the bright side, things can only go up from here, right?

[Stradling]

53 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

Even if the 2016 team was healthy it's not as good as some of the 2002-2009 teams. 

We know

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 hour ago, CALZONE said:

Even if the 2016 team was healthy it's not as good as some any of the 2002-2009 teams. 

fify

[DoubleOffTheWall]

Reading your words makes this downfall even more ludicrous. You just posed that the team's peak in 09, and then drafted the best player of this next generation right after, and THEN entered their downfall.

What other org could reach their peak, draft the best player and then enter a terrible phase? Only a franchise as dumb as the angels.

 

 

 

[Angel Oracle]

They were set up nice for a big 2009 post-season run.

Weave and Lackey were dealing.   Kazmir had a strong September after coming here.  The lineup was rock solid.

One big issue.....Daisy's gopher ball pitch in ALCS game 2, reverse that and who knows what happens for the rest of the series.   Granted, Kazmir unexpectedly struggled in both of his post-season starts.

The bullpen was the one big question mark that season.   If they had even the 2007 bullpen, maybe they are WS bound.

[stormngt]

45 minutes ago, DoubleOffTheWall said:

Reading your words makes this downfall even more ludicrous. You just posed that the team's peak in 09, and then drafted the best player of this next generation right after, and THEN entered their downfall.

What other org could reach their peak, draft the best player and then enter a terrible phase? Only a franchise as dumb as the angels.

 

 

 

Simple.  The core of the 2009 team left (Lackey, Fishing, Vladdy).  Add the disaster of Brandon Wood and Morales breaking his leg.  Bobby Abreau was a disappointment in year.  It is funny I remember a thread debating who should the Angels offer a contract Vladdy or Abreau and most picked Abreau.  Vladdy only had an All Star year the following year.  His replacement Matsui only hit well after the Angels were eliminated.

Now add the fact that they relied on Morales to only be out for one year (why else would they trade Napoli who played a lot of 1b in 2010) and it took him two years.

By the time the offensive weaknesses were solved the pitching collapsed in second half in 2011 I believe.

 

Oh one more component.  Our bull pen stunk every year but one. 

 

Like I said....simple

[mulwin444]

Matsui (.274 .361 .820 OPS) and Vlad (.300 .345 .841 OPS) put up similar numbers in 2010 and Matsui mostly struggled in May that year

Apr - .827 OPS

May - .557 OPS

June - .889 OPS

July - .716 OPS

Aug - .938 OPS

Sept - 1.037 OPS

Hideki had a WAR of 1.6 versus Vlad at 1.8 (Hideki OPS+ 126 vs Vlad OPS+ 119)

If we re-signed Vlad versus signed Matusi, the outcome would have been the same.

The issue with the 2010 team, besides Morales' injury, is we went from having a .395 OBP (Figgins) and .390 OBP (Abreu) at the top of the line-up to .306 OBP (Aybar) and .352 OBP (older Abreu).  Also, Hunter's OPS went from .873 to .819, Rivera's OPS from .810 to .721, Napoli's OPS from .842 to .784,, Kendrick's OPS .778 to .721, and Aybar's OPS from .776 to .636.  The entire offense took a dump.  Add to that Kazmir and Saunders sucking 40% of the team starts, the Fuentes/Rodney tandem of awfulness, and the historic failure of Wood over 243 plate appearances (.146 .174 .382 OPS) and the year was just a complete ball of suck.  

The point of no return started with the Napoli/Rivera of Wells trade. It all started with the winter meetings and the Reagins comical pursuit of Crawford which resulted in a roomful of laughing Red Sox executives and an overreaction from Arte.  What possessed the "brain trust" to trade for what was considered at the time the worst and most unmovable contract in the MLB, and not get any other than a meager $5 mil kick back, is still beyond the knowable.  I'll just assume something viral and untreatable infested the Angels front office and took several seasons to work its way out.  After that the Beltre debacle in 2011 just exacerbated the situation...from the frying pan and into the void of perpetual stupidity.  10 year deal to a 32 year old, 5 year deal to a drug addict, bad drafts and sparse assets traded for minimal veteran return.

Hopefully, Eppler is the man we need because they actually could recover...but the execution remains to be seen

 

[Sciosciapath]

5 hours ago, California Cajun said:

09 is my favorite team because it won 97 games despite losing every starter for at least a month plus Vlad and Torii.  Adenhart was killed, which was my most difficult moment as a fan and, I'm  sure, the players.

What happened after 09 has probably  been hashed and rehashed here.  

The 09 team was the biggest What If, Fuentes vs. Arod...bruh...........

if we get past the Yanks, we beat the Phillies in the WS, no?

[DoubleOffTheWall]

1 hour ago, stormngt said:

Simple.  The core of the 2009 team left (Lackey, Fishing, Vladdy).  Add the disaster of Brandon Wood and Morales breaking his leg.  Bobby Abreau was a disappointment in year.  It is funny I remember a thread debating who should the Angels offer a contract Vladdy or Abreau and most picked Abreau.  Vladdy only had an All Star year the following year.  His replacement Matsui only hit well after the Angels were eliminated.

Now add the fact that they relied on Morales to only be out for one year (why else would they trade Napoli who played a lot of 1b in 2010) and it took him two years.

By the time the offensive weaknesses were solved the pitching collapsed in second half in 2011 I believe.

 

Oh one more component.  Our bull pen stunk every year but one. 

 

Like I said....simple

That doesn't sound that simple to me. Sounds like a lot of stuff happening at once, from core members leaving, to freak injuries, to some of the most idiotic FO moves ever made (Napoli trade for Wells, getting Matsui instead of extending Vlad), to a continually crap bullpen (outside of 2014). Like I said...only a franchise as inept as the angels could have peaked in the same year they drafted the best player of the next generation, and then nosedived so badly and for so long. 

But this has happened before in other sports. I think back to the Pistons winning the ring back in 04, and having a solid core going forward, and having the opportunity to draft Carmelo Anthony and instead picking Darko Milicic. But in their case, they didn't pick Melo, so they deserved what they eventually got (being supplanted by Cleveland). In our case, we actually peaked, got the best player, and still F'd it all up. Damn. 

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, DoubleOffTheWall said:

That doesn't sound that simple to me. Sounds like a lot of stuff happening at once, from core members leaving, to freak injuries, to some of the most idiotic FO moves ever made (Napoli trade for Wells, getting Matsui instead of extending Vlad), to a continually crap bullpen (outside of 2014). Like I said...only a franchise as inept as the angels could have peaked in the same year they drafted the best player of the next generation, and then nosedived so badly and for so long. 

But this has happened before in other sports. I think back to the Pistons winning the ring back in 04, and having a solid core going forward, and having the opportunity to draft Carmelo Anthony and instead picking Darko Milicic. But in their case, they didn't pick Melo, so they deserved what they eventually got (being supplanted by Cleveland). In our case, we actually peaked, got the best player, and still F'd it all up. Damn. 

The last simple comment was intended to show sarcasm.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

7 hours ago, zenmaster said:

Look at the bright side, things can only go up from here, right?

The thing is that it is going to take years for things to improve. The farm system has deteriorated to lows that defy historical precedent, the team is locked into big money contracts, and ownership has stopped spending money. When you don't sign free agents and your farm system is barren, that is a pretty hopeless scenario.

[ettin]

I remember being in the stadium for the playoffs against the Yankees. That was as an electric moment as I can remember being at a game and it was really cool to be there. The mishaps that happened in that whole series were pretty tragic because I really felt like we had a great shot at going all the way.  Remember the pop up communication issue between Figgins and Aybar because of the hoodies they were wearing because it was so cold?

[Stradling]

Wasn't that the series where they tagged two runners off the base at third on the same play and only called one out?  

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, ettin said:

I remember being in the stadium for the playoffs against the Yankees. That was as an electric moment as I can remember being at a game and it was really cool to be there. The mishaps that happened in that whole series were pretty tragic because I really felt like we had a great shot at going all the way.  Remember the pop up communication issue between Figgins and Aybar because of the hoodies they were wearing because it was so cold?

Yeah, i remember the cold being a huge factor. Didnt izturis botch somethingtoo? Like either overslid 2cd and was tagged out, or screwed up a tag at 2cd because the cold?

[Pujols4MVP]

They started drafting bad when they fired Eddie Bane, Reagins hated Bane & told bane to draft toolsy HSer's, so Bane did that then Reagins blames him for that draft & fires him. Is that right ?

At least he was able to get closer of the future Bedrosian, Calhoun & we have yet to see the last of Cowart.

[cysomeawfulpitcher]

15 hours ago, zenmaster said:

Look at the bright side, things can only go up from here, right?

Unless Artard Moreno lets Fat Mike manage to the end of his contract.

[FabulousFabregas]

The Angels made a huge mistake letting go of the core of that 2000's team after/around 2009.  The Napoli/Wells trade was awful and really capped it off, dismantling the core of that team is what led to the awful contracts we have now.  There's a reason the Yankees were good for so long, you had Jeter and Mariano Rivera there literally for 20 years, and other guys for long stints as well, and they moved pieces around those guys to have consistent winning and contending teams.

I think letting K-Rod walk after 2008 was a huge mistake (which bit us in the ass in the 2009 ALCS), he's never properly been replaced outside of the year and a half that Huston Street was good for us.  Letting Lackey walk I think was ultimately a mistake too, I know he had the year he missed for Boston and another crappy year, but I'd argue that contract (including the option league minimum year) ended up being a lot better than CJ Wilson's based on Lackey's 2013-2015 performance.  To me Lackey and Frankie should have been our core pitching staff wise and Angels lifers like the Yankees had Jeter and Rivera.  It's unfortunate that Arte had to be cheap, especially compared to the contracts he gave out after the likes of Frankie and Lackey left.  If they were still on the team they'd be the best starting pitcher and the best reliever on the staff right now, even all these years later.  The amount of turnover player wise I think has hurt the team, and leads to someone like Scioscia just having way too much power.  After Weaver is gone, won't Trout be the longest tenured player?

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

^good points fab.

I think a big part of it was overvaluing our minors. I think strad mentioned above, wood. In and of itself, one failed prospect isnt a huge deal. But i think the fact he and kotchman never lived up to the expectations played a big role, because we let good guys go assuming we had quality replacements. To be fair, we were on a roll for a bit. For the haters on here, aybar, howie and santana were very good home grown guys.

But you couple that with morales, and you have a bigger problem. Then factor in adenhart.

As far as letting the 09 group go, its a tough one. While i agree, lackey should have been retained, others i can understand. I was the biggest vlad fan in the world. And it didnt help that he absolutely crushed in texas the next year. But, to be fair, he wanted 2 years, and he was pretty pedestrian in his second year. The problem is we never really replaced him.

From the 09 group, i guess you can say we replaced rivera with trumbo, and later calhoun. Vlad eventually turned into trout. Pujols replaced morales. 

But we havent replaced howie, who was a lot more valuable than people realize. Escobar replaces figgins (not glove wise), but how long did that take? Never replaced maicer. As stated, never replaced frankie (or shields). Weaver replaced lackey...but we didnt replace weaver. Santana for a bit, but we didnt replace santana. The SP staff was still solid for a bit...then collapsed. Credit dipoto for rebuilding a staff,  but the injuries killed us.

Mainly in my original post, i wasnt trying to start another "we suck" thread as much as just shaking my head...wondering how we went from just about doing everything right, to so many things wrong. 

I know sosh is a scapegoat here, and im not a nutswinger for him. But the problem has far more to do with the team hes been given. We just havent built a great team in years. 12 should have been, but the pen. 14 was a lot of fun, but you cant really count on so many things going right, anymore than anyone could have predicted this years bad luck.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Interesting that you mentioned Morales' injury. My mind keeps going back to that moment. What started out as a moment of triumph and celebration turned into a season-altering - and arguably a franchise-altering - moment. Kendrys Morales was establishing himself as a team fixture and a major offensive producer. Had this injury not happened the Pujols signing probably wouldn't have either, and we probably wouldn't have had all of these sunken costs trying to generate offensive production.

[TroutField]

6 hours ago, ettin said:

I remember being in the stadium for the playoffs against the Yankees. That was as an electric moment as I can remember being at a game and it was really cool to be there. The mishaps that happened in that whole series were pretty tragic because I really felt like we had a great shot at going all the way.  Remember the pop up communication issue between Figgins and Aybar because of the hoodies they were wearing because it was so cold?

It still haunts me thinking about that series in New York. Absolute heart breaker, I remember going to bed absolutely pissed off after A Rod hit that bomb just out of the reach of Abreu. 

[gurn67]

Scot Shields got hurt in 2009. Most underrated player in Angels' history. If they'd had the Shields of 2003-2008 in that bullpen, 2009 would have ended differently.

[stormngt]

7 hours ago, FabulousFabregas said:

The Angels made a huge mistake letting go of the core of that 2000's team after/around 2009.  The Napoli/Wells trade was awful and really capped it off, dismantling the core of that team is what led to the awful contracts we have now.  There's a reason the Yankees were good for so long, you had Jeter and Mariano Rivera there literally for 20 years, and other guys for long stints as well, and they moved pieces around those guys to have consistent winning and contending teams.

I think letting K-Rod walk after 2008 was a huge mistake (which bit us in the ass in the 2009 ALCS), he's never properly been replaced outside of the year and a half that Huston Street was good for us.  Letting Lackey walk I think was ultimately a mistake too, I know he had the year he missed for Boston and another crappy year, but I'd argue that contract (including the option league minimum year) ended up being a lot better than CJ Wilson's based on Lackey's 2013-2015 performance.  To me Lackey and Frankie should have been our core pitching staff wise and Angels lifers like the Yankees had Jeter and Rivera.  It's unfortunate that Arte had to be cheap, especially compared to the contracts he gave out after the likes of Frankie and Lackey left.  If they were still on the team they'd be the best starting pitcher and the best reliever on the staff right now, even all these years later.  The amount of turnover player wise I think has hurt the team, and leads to someone like Scioscia just having way too much power.  After Weaver is gone, won't Trout be the longest tenured player?

 

Arte took things personal when it was just business.  KRODS contract with the Mets was not that much higher than what we gave Fuentes.  However KROD went back on a deal and wanted more after Mariano got his raise.  I always thought it was a mistake to let Lackey go and Vladdy last year's should have been an Angel,