It’s time to remind ourselves of the evils of socialism

[Spirit]

As you should. 

[Angelsjunky]

to stradlings point, I definitely agree that we should look at how we're spending the money we already have before we start looking at increasing taxes.  Thats not an unreasonable position at all.  In my mind, we need to fix our horrific tax code and figure out how properly calibrate the nations budget in order to fund things that we need.  In addition, I personally don't think its unfair to ask more successful people to pay a reasonably increased tax.  Success is a product of hard work and ingenuity and people should be rewarded for their efforts, but nobody succeeds in a complete vacuum.  The opportunities are there to be exploited, some are better at it then others.  I'm not sure how to really articulate this idea well, and I do think that more successful people can be abusively taxed. They should not be.  There is a balance here. 

 

That said,I personally tend to be sympathetic to "social programs" because my outlook is that we're all on the same ship and we should contribute together in order to make our community/state/country however you want to frame it better.  I think that large infrastructure benefits all and should be organized and looked after by those appointed to represent us (the government) if there is a failure of any sort thats a problem that needs to be addressed with how government operates.  Not a failure of the idea IMO.  The same can be said for our military, public schools, the justice systems, various regulatory agencies, social security, etc, and IMO healthcare (i believe a wealthy industrialized nation in the 21st century should be able to provide healthcare to its citizenry) obviously we can disagree on what is appropriate to be under the umbrella and what is not.  I guess thats why we have elections.  The bottom line though IMO is that all these functions of the government are a type of socialism in action already !! So the idea that socialized ideas lead definitively to the most extreme examples of authoritarian government is somewhat paranoid in my view.  I think that free market capitalism is fully compatible with socialized concepts.  There needs to be restraints on both in order to make them work best for everyone.

 

Good stuff - not far from what I've been saying. That last bit in bold is what many don't seem to understand, that it isn't either/or: either Maoist China on one hand or laissez-faire pipe dream libertarian utopia.

 

While there may be no strict or narrow ideal, the basic approach should be how to incorporate strong social programs into a free market economy, and also how best regulate that economy so wealth is more evenly distributed and not pooled at the top.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Angelsjunky

[Spirit]

[Jay]

No it's DOLLAHS

[halobob]

Good stuff - not far from what I've been saying. That last bit in bold is what many don't seem to understand, that it isn't either/or: either Maoist China on one hand or laissez-faire pipe dream libertarian utopia.

 

While there may be no strict or narrow ideal, the basic approach should be how to incorporate strong social programs into a free market economy, and also how best regulate that economy so wealth is more evenly distributed and not pooled at the top.

I understand the last bit in bold perfectly AJ.  We are already giving up enough of our hard earned money.  

[halobob]

Well we are half way there AJ, we are already a "highly taxed" nation. I'm not an unreasonable man, once they show they can actually live within the budget of the money they already get, then I would consider giving more, but until then, absolutely not.

This exactly.  

[Make Angels Great Again]

I understand the last bit in bold perfectly AJ.  We are already giving up enough of our hard earned money.  

 

[Make Angels Great Again]

Relatively, we're not really.

[nate]

While there may be no strict or narrow ideal, the basic approach should be how to incorporate strong social programs into a free market economy, and also how best regulate that economy so wealth is more evenly distributed and not pooled at the top.

 

Horse shit as usual.  It isn't a free market economy if you are regulating how much money people are making.  Especially when you are taking it from those that are working for it and giving it to those that aren't.  That is a Socialist economy and it is also totalitarian.

[halobob]

Like I said, we already give up enough of our money.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Relatively, we're not really.

[Make Angels Great Again]

I don't understand how you look at the history of taxes in the country and see it as one of the lower points now, then look at it compared to other countries and see us near the bottom, then say we're highly taxed.

[Tank]

that graphic is like complaining that the angels aren't charging enough for tickets.

[Make Angels Great Again]

If it was hard numbers, yeah, but it's percentages.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Either way actually, it doesn't really matter. The statement was that we're very heavily taxed, among the highest in the world apparently. If you look at history we're simply not.

[nate]

I have bad news for you, AFL.  In the Nordic countries the highest tax rate is anyone making 2x the average pay (in the US it would be anyone making over $50k)

 

By all means though, we should keep taking money from people to give it to a corrupt government for them to waste away and spend as they like.

[Make Angels Great Again]

What does that have to do with anything? There's a lot more than Nordic countries higher than us.

[Jay]

Relatively, we're not really.

 

Please get your numbers straight.

 

Does that graph show all taxes we pay?  Or just Federal Income tax?

[Make Angels Great Again]

I believe it's all taxes: 

 

"These include taxes on income, payroll, property, sales, capital gains, dividends, imports, estates and gifts, as well as various fees. In 2010 taxes collected by federal, state and municipal governments amounted to 24.8% of GDP."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States#References

[ABC]

 

Is relative to GDP a reasonable way to compare taxation?

Edited March 24, 2016 by ____

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Not when you realize the US had a GDP in 2015 that was 58% higher than the 2nd ranked country and over 4x as much a the third ranked country.  As far as income tax rates by country as of Dec'15:

 

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate

[Jay]

I believe it's all taxes: 

 

"These include taxes on income, payroll, property, sales, capital gains, dividends, imports, estates and gifts, as well as various fees. In 2010 taxes collected by federal, state and municipal governments amounted to 24.8% of GDP."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States#References

 

thanks for the reference

 

Not sure what it means though, tax burden as a percentage of GDP.

 

It could mean that some countries have a small GDP but high taxes.  That might not be the way to go.

[Make Angels Great Again]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/how-low-are-us-taxes-compared-to-other-countries/267148/

 

"The best way to answer the question "Are U.S. taxes high or low compared to other countries?" is to look at taxes as a share of the economy. Here's how the U.S. stacks up to other OECD countries in a graph from the Tax Policy Center. (We're at the bottom of the stack, 25 percent below the average.)"

 

"For the next few years, there's no particular reason to expect there will be another major tax increase, but after 2020 the government's health care bill will start to make our spending levels look, for lack of a better term, European. There are any number of ways to stop the trend, from the extreme -- turning Medicare into a voucher-support program -- to the incremental -- tweaking Medicare and hoping that medical inflation slows down on its own. But either way, the U.S. won't have historically low interest rates forever, and it's probable that the third-lowest tax/GDP ratio in the developed world is a good deal for now, but not a sustainable deal for the long run."

[Make Angels Great Again]

Is relative to GDP a reasonable way to compare taxation?

 

Yes.

[ABC]

Yes.

 

Where do you think the US should be on that list?