Anyone else not want to trade Howie?

[Stradling]

I see everyone shitting all over Greens defense, does anyone think Griffin can make him league average? Kennedy was a stiff and became a solid second baseman. Howie wasn't great and he helped him become slightly better than average. I would still rather trade Aybar but thought I'd ask this question, hadn't seen it asked before.

[Second Base]

Howie miffs the easiest of plays and in an era that features many converted shortstops playing second base, his range is below average, his glove is below average, his footwork is average and his arm is average.  Howie Kendrick is not an above average defensive second baseman, he's quite below average.  

 

His butcher-work defensively at second base is completely tolerable because he can hit the ball, is a decent teammate, isn't severely overpaid and could always breakout like he did in 2011. 

 

Similarly, Green was awful at second base but he's just becoming accustomed to the position.  2013 was his first year playing the position.  Given his athleticism, in a year or two I'm confident Green will be as good defensively as Kendrick is, which as I pointed out before is acceptable with offensive presence, which Green has. 

[Scott34]

Howie miffs the easiest of plays and in an era that features many converted shortstops playing second base, his range is below average, his glove is below average, his footwork is average and his arm is average.  Howie Kendrick is not an above average defensive second baseman, he's quite below average.  

 

His butcher-work defensively at second base is completely tolerable because he can hit the ball, is a decent teammate, isn't severely overpaid and could always breakout like he did in 2011. 

 

Similarly, Green was awful at second base but he's just becoming accustomed to the position.  2013 was his first year playing the position.  Given his athleticism, in a year or two I'm confident Green will be as good defensively as Kendrick is, which as I pointed out before is acceptable with offensive presence, which Green has. 

 

What? Is this a joke?

[Mark68]

I don't WANT to trade him, but we probably NEED to trade him. Howie is the biggest trade chip we have, and he can be traded because Lindsey, who is more than likely the heir apparent, is also our number one prospect. Howie can get us the pitching we need, and if he's packaged with Trumbo, we might be able to get a really good return.

 

In other words, I don't see how the biggest glaring weakness on this team is improved without trading Howie.

[beatlesrule]

At this point, you can't get a good SP unless we trade for one.  If reports are correct, the Angels are not going to spend money on a FA pitcher like Ubaldo or Garza so the only option is to trade.  If you can package Kendrick in a deal to get Price, you HAVE to do it.  I wanted the Angels to trade pretty much everyone they could this year for some young prospects but it didn't happen so I am all for Kendrick leaving if we can upgrade the SP.

Edited December 1, 2013 by beatlesrule

[jshep]

What? Is this a joke?

 

Ya, I'm not quite sure what to make of that.

 

And seriously, if someone can make Grant Green Kendrick's defensive equal at 2B, they deserve a freaking medal.

[Inside Pitch]

What? Is this a joke?

 

It's someone trying really hard to make Grant Green look better...   To the point of making shit up.   HK passes the eye test and the metrics all point to his being a better than average defender.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[beatlesrule]

It's someone trying really hard to make Grant Green look better...   To the point of making shit up.

 

Maybe he is Grant Green.

[Second Base]

Maybe I was misunderstood, Grant Green is NOT as good as Howie Kendrick defensively at second base.  Howie Kendrick is not a gooddefensive second baseman, but at this point in time Grant Green is not as second baseman AT ALL.  What I'm saying is the Angels and A's tried Green at second base for the first time in 2013.  He'd never played second base before that and to try and learn a position for the first time at the major league level, it just isn't likely to work out very well. 

 

But with time and reps, in a year or two I wouldn't be surprised if Green picked it up and was playing a passable second base, which is what I think Howie Kendrick plays, a passable second base. 

 

I didn't mean it to sound as if Grant Green was Kendrick's equal. I don't think Green is Kendrick's equal.  But in a couple years, I think he could be.  He'll already hit for average like Kendrick, collects plenty of doubles like Kendrick and runs into a homerun here and there much like Kendrick.  Heck he may even reach base more often than Howie.  What separates them is that Howie is a bad defensive second baseman, and Grant Green isn't even a second baseman....yet.

Edited December 1, 2013 by ScottyA_MWAH

[tdawg87]

I didn't mean it to sound as if Grant Green was Kendrick's equal and that's my fault if it did. I don't think Green is Kendrick's equal.  But in a couple years, I think he could be.  He'll already hit for average like Kendrick, collects plenty of doubles like Kendrick and runs into a homerun here and there much like Kendrick.  Heck he may even reach base more often than Howie. 

 

I don't think this is the part that people are questioning. This is a perfectly fair statement.

 

What separates them is that Howie is a bad defensive second baseman

 

 

This is not.

[Scott34]

Howie Kendrick is a great second baseman.

 

Fangraphs Def.:

 

2011: 16.0

2012: 6.3

2013: 3.9

 

UZR:

 

14.4

4.9

2.6

[Second Base]

Would you accept below average in place of bad?  Because that seems pretty accurate to me.  And Grant Green's not even on the measuring scale yet. 

[Second Base]

There's a shortcoming Scott, you're trusting defensive metrics which are still light years away from being anywhere NEAR accurate.  Kendrick breaks up more double plays in the field than he does running the bases.  He's not a great second baseman.  

 

Robinson Cano is a great second baseman.  Dustin Pedroia is a great second baseman.  Up until last season, Brandon Phillips was a great second baseman.

 

Kendrick is not Cano, not Pedoria, not Phillips.  Those guys are great.  He's not even in the same conversation.  

Edited December 1, 2013 by ScottyA_MWAH

[tdawg87]

There's shortcoming Scott, you're trusting defensive metrics which are still years away from being anywhere NEAR accurate.  Kendrick breaks up more double plays in the field than he does running the bases.  He's not a great second baseman.

 

Are there stats to support this? Not being condescending I'd really like to know.

[Scott34]

He totally passes the eye-test for me.  I really can't believe you think he's below average.

[Docwaukee]

I am trying to be as respectful as possible to you Scotty, but you trying to give us your scout's eye on how Kendrick plays defense and telling us he's not very good is you losing the forest for the trees.  Howie has eight years of results and tons of us seeing him on a regular basis.  Every metric you could possibly look at with ample data indicate he's slighlty above average.  Our eyes tell us the same thing.  He may have the deficiencies that you've indicated, but we have actual results of how he's made that work for him to be above average.  

 

Grant Green may end up getting better, but he's nowhere near producing the defensive results that Howie has.  That's a big concern for 2014 and 2015.  Especially because his bat isn't nearly as good as well.

[jshep]

Not going to argue that defensive metrics aren't flawed(although I think they're the best stat-based defensive tool we have at our disposal at the fan level), but even by what I've seen I would call Howie comfortably above average defensively. 

 

Maybe not great or anything, but certainly not bad or even below average.

[Second Base]

Are there stats to support this? Not being condescending I'd really like to know.

 

Really just the eye-test/comparing skill sets.  I mean you could look at the defensive metrics and they support this but as I said, I don't trust those anyway.  Offense is more quanitfiable and can be measured.  Defense just seems considerably more qualitative in nature.  Cano, Pedoria and Phillips all have better range than Howie, they all have a better glove than Howie, they all have better footwork than Howie and they all have a stronger arm than Howie. 

[Stradling]

What I saw from Green at second was uneasiness at the position, like he wasn't comfortable there or lacked the instincts and obviously repetitions there. I'm not saying he can become great but possibly league average isn't too much of a stretch.

[Inside Pitch]

There's a shortcoming Scott, you're trusting defensive metrics which are still light years away from being anywhere NEAR accurate.  Kendrick breaks up more double plays in the field than he does running the bases.  He's not a great second baseman.  

 

 

So it's just a matter of opinion then -- and your opinion is he's below average.  Fine.

 

All I know is that when EVERY defensive metric all says that a guy is an above average defender -- he likely is.  People can cling to the line that defensive metrics leave a lot to be desired but if you know their limitations you know what to look for. 

 

HK passed the eye test a long time ago.

[Second Base]

I am trying to be as respectful as possible to you Scotty, but you trying to give us your scout's eye on how Kendrick plays defense and telling us he's not very good is you losing the forest for the trees.  Howie has eight years of results and tons of us seeing him on a regular basis.  Every metric you could possibly look at with ample data indicate he's slighlty above average.  Our eyes tell us the same thing.  He may have the deficiencies that you've indicated, but we have actual results of how he's made that work for him to be above average.  

 

Grant Green may end up getting better, but he's nowhere near producing the defensive results that Howie has.  That's a big concern for 2014 and 2015.  Especially because his bat isn't nearly as good as well.

 

Two scouts watch the same player and see two completely different things.  I've watched Howie no more or no less than everyone else here, so we're equal.  I see a player with an average arm and average range going to his glove side.  I also see a terribly slow first step, extremely limited range going up the middle, terrible when leaving his feet and slower but acceptable footwork when turning double plays that is made up for with a quick release and accurate arm.  

 

On the whole, I see a below average defensive second baseman with an excellent offensive skill set that doesn't result in as much production as it should be for various reasons.  

 

In your opinion, is this assessment inaccurate?

[Marsaka]

Howie Kendrick is a great second baseman.

 

Fangraphs Def.:

 

2011: 16.0

2012: 6.3

2013: 3.9

 

UZR:

 

14.4

4.9

2.6

 

So you're saying hes getting progressively worse?  

[Inside Pitch]

Two scouts watch the same player and see two completely different things.  I've watched Howie no more or no less than everyone else here, so we're equal.  I see a player with an average arm and average range going to his glove side.  I also see a terribly slow first step, extremely limited range going up the middle, terrible when leaving his feet and slower but acceptable footwork when turning double plays that is made up for with a quick release and accurate arm.  

 

On the whole, I see a below average defensive second baseman with an excellent offensive skill set that doesn't result in as much production as it should be for various reasons.  

 

In your opinion, is this assessment inaccurate?

 

 

So did you see how often Grant Green quit on anything hit to his right? or in the air?   Did you notice how he's been an abject failure defensively at every position he's played in the minors?

Grant Green is the guy putting up pretty numbers at the combine that goes out and gets knocked on his ass every snap.

 

Grant Green is MLB's Mike Mamula.

[Marsaka]

Two scouts watch the same player and see two completely different things.  I've watched Howie no more or no less than everyone else here, so we're equal.  I see a player with an average arm and average range going to his glove side.  I also see a terribly slow first step, extremely limited range going up the middle, terrible when leaving his feet and slower but acceptable footwork when turning double plays that is made up for with a quick release and accurate arm.  

 

On the whole, I see a below average defensive second baseman with an excellent offensive skill set that doesn't result in as much production as it should be for various reasons.  

 

In your opinion, is this assessment inaccurate?

 

Nope, u hit the nail on the head.  He botches as many dp's as he hits into, and that's saying something....

[Docwaukee]

Two scouts watch the same player and see two completely different things.  I've watched Howie no more or no less than everyone else here, so we're equal.  I see a player with an average arm and average range going to his glove side.  I also see a terribly slow first step, extremely limited range going up the middle, terrible when leaving his feet and slower but acceptable footwork when turning double plays that is made up for with a quick release and accurate arm.  

 

On the whole, I see a below average defensive second baseman with an excellent offensive skill set that doesn't result in as much production as it should be for various reasons.  

 

In your opinion, is this assessment inaccurate?

 

not totally but we are not trying to project how he will be.  We have eight years of results.  Even with mildly immature defensive metrics, a sample size that large tells us something. 

 

If it's your opinion that despite these results you still see him as a below average defender then there is not much we can say to that although I do think this assessment is somewhat veiled with your trying to make an arguement for trading Howie. 

 

Hey, we all have our opinions of course.  Green could end up a very capable replacement, but I don't thing you need to diminish howie's skills to try and sell us on it.