Anyone else not want to trade Howie?

[tdawg87]

Nope, u hit the nail on the head.  He botches as many dp's as he hits into, and that's saying something....

 

You have this weird hatred for Howie Kendrick it's actually kind of mind-boggling.

[Second Base]

So did you see how often Grant Green quit on anything hit to his right? or in the air?   Did you notice how he's been an abject failure defensively at every position he's played in the minors?

Grant Green is the guy putting up pretty numbers at the combine that goes out and gets knocked on his ass every snap.

 

Grant Green is MLB's Mike Mamula.

 

And did I not say that Grant Green is NOT a second baseman yet?  I wasn't kidding, he isn't.  I think he can be in a year or two but he's just not there yet and that's likely because he hasn't played the position much at all. 

[Second Base]

not totally but we are not trying to project how he will be.  We have eight years of results.  Even with mildly immature defensive metrics, a sample size that large tells us something. 

 

If it's your opinion that despite these results you still see him as a below average defender then there is not much we can say to that although I do think this assessment is somewhat veiled with your trying to make an arguement for trading Howie. 

 

Hey, we all have our opinions of course.  Green could end up a very capable replacement, but I don't thing you need to diminish howie's skills to try and sell us on it. 

 

I think the Angels will trade Howie and I'm arguing in support of such a decision because I don't think it'd be the end of the world.  However, if it were my choice, I think I'd trade Trumbo.  Offensively speaking, I think the Angels have enough players that share some of Turmbo's skill set.  I'd like to see the Angels get on base more often and manufacture more runs.  Offensively speaking, I believe Howie fits this better than Mark does.   

[Stradling]

So you're saying hes getting progressively worse?

What a surprise you are making a negative post, we as a collective group are shocked.

[Stradling]

You have this weird hatred for The Angels it's actually kind of mind-boggling.

Fixed

[Inside Pitch]

And did I not say that Grant Green is NOT a second baseman yet?  I wasn't kidding, he isn't.  I think he can be in a year or two but he's just not there yet and that's likely because he hasn't played the position much at all. 

 

Prior to not being a 2B he wasn't a SS.  Then he wasn't a CFer.   Then he wasn't a LFer.  Then he wasn't a 3B for like 15 games.

 

Grant Mamula is a DH.

[mtangelsfan]

Scotty, you are wildy off on this Howie is a below average second baseman stuff.  Its amazingly bad for somebody who considers themselves a person who is able to acess baseball skills.

 

Every metric and and every eye test, every stat out there says the same thing, Howie is good.  Not great, but good.  Grant Green might end up being a good hitter.  But his wooden reactions at second base tell me he will never be an equal to Howie.  Now Green could prove me wrong in the future because he has years ahead of him.  Howie has years behind him of proof of his skill level.

 

In other words scotty, you are flat out wrong.

[eligrba]

If Howie can net the Angels a solid pitcher-trade 'em.  He will be missed, but I suspect not as much as a quality starter.

[Second Base]

Scotty, you are wildy off on this Howie is a below average second baseman stuff. Its amazingly bad for somebody who considers themselves a person who is able to acess baseball skills.

Every metric and and every eye test, every stat out there says the same thing, Howie is good. Not great, but good. Grant Green might end up being a good hitter. But his wooden reactions at second base tell me he will never be an equal to Howie. Now Green could prove me wrong in the future because he has years ahead of him. Howie has years behind him of proof of his skill level.

In other words scotty, you are flat out wrong.

As has been beaten to death MT, this is a matter of opinion, and from a skill set perspective, you cannot deny Kendrick's weaknesses in going up the middle, poor glove and inability to make the tough play. The past two seasons every double play ball hit right at him is an adventure. He extends innings at a higher rate than your average second baseball. If you deny, then you're flat out wrong (see what I did there?)

Howie's proven far more offensively in his eight plus years as an Angel than he has defensively. Quite frankly I think this is a case of fans ONLY watching Kendrick and Green and only being able to compare those two. There are a lot more more second baseman out there. Cano, Ellis, Kinsler, Kipnis, Pedoria, Phillips, Walker, Zobrist. THESE are what good second baseman are.

Kendrick is NOT a good defnesive second baseman. Anyone that thinks he is may consider readjusting those rosy red spectacles they're wearing. Now if you were to make an argument for adequate, I'd completely 100% agree with you. He's adequate defensively because of his bat being such a difference maker for a middle infielder. but if you want to call him GOOD defensively, then as you said and I repeated, you are flat out wrong. Or possibly bias/unaware.

Edited December 1, 2013 by ScottyA_MWAH

[Scott34]

I think I'm one of the most critical (objective) people on here.

 

 

Howie Kendrick is a good second baseman. 

[Second Base]

Laughable.  I've made a list of TEN major leaguers that are better than Howie defensively.  Can anyone here name ten starting second basemen in major league baseball that Kendrick is better defensively than?  If you can, you may have just proved he's average (assuming your evaluations were correct), which I still doubt. 

[tdawg87]

Laughable.  I've made a list of TEN major leaguers that are better than Howie defensively.  Can anyone here name ten starting second basemen in major league baseball that Kendrick is better defensively than?  If you can, you may have just proved he's average (assuming your evaluations were correct), which I still doubt. 

 

Well since this is all a matter of opinion that is kind of pointless. Especially since you have already decided that anyone else's evaluations are wrong.

[Scott34]

Ian Kinsler, Neil Walker, Jason Kipnis are far worse than Kendrick defensively.  That's 3 out of the 8 you named.  I'll also add Jedd Gyorko, Daniel Murphy, Marco Scutaro.

[Second Base]

Well since this is all a matter of opinion that is kind of pointless. Especially since you have already decided that anyone else's evaluations are wrong.

 

 

No I meant I doubt we'd find ten that'd qualify Kendrick as average. 

[Second Base]

Ian Kinsler, Neil Walker, Jason Kipnis are far worse than Kendrick defensively.  That's 3 out of the 8 you named.  I'll also add Jedd Gyorko, Daniel Murphy, Marco Scutaro.

 

Well there's us disagreeing on talent evals. Ridding ourselves of our hatred for Kinsler (I don't like him either) do you honestly believe Kinsler is not as good as Kendrick?

[jshep]

Laughable.  I've made a list of TEN major leaguers that are better than Howie defensively.  Can anyone here name ten starting second basemen in major league baseball that Kendrick is better defensively than?  If you can, you may have just proved he's average (assuming your evaluations were correct), which I still doubt. 

 

Well, you've actually made a list of 10 major league 2Bs that YOU THINK are better than Howie defensively.

 

As far as 10 starting 2Bs in major league baseball worse defensively, based on exactly the same thing as your list of superior ones?

 

Weeks

Altuve

Uggla

Gyorko

Infante

Hill

Walker

Beckham

Kipnis

Murphy

Edited December 1, 2013 by jshep

[Scott34]

Well there's us disagreeing on talent evals. Ridding ourselves of our hatred for Kinsler (I don't like him either) do you honestly believe Kinsler is not as good as Kendrick?

 

Defensively? Absolutely.

 

2012 Def: 0.5

2013 Def: -0.3

 

2012 UZR: -0.3

2013 UZR: -1.0

 

Kendrick

 

2012 Def: 6.3

2013 Def: 3.9

 

2012 UZR: 4.9

2013 UZR: 2.6

[Second Base]

From that list JSHEP, I'd give you Weeks, Uggla, Gyorko, Infante and Beckham.  I've haven't watched Murphy near enough but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, there's 6.  Altuve I'd consider on par with Kendrick.  He has his strengths and weaknesses as a defender just as Howie does.

 

So Howie's a better defender than 6 second baseman in baseball.  Does everyone here still believe he's a GOOD second baseman?  If you guys could name ten, I'd believe he was average (relative of course).  If you could name 15 I'd legitimately think he's good.  As it stands right now, he's still a below average defensive second baseman. 

[Second Base]

Again Scott, you're using defensive metrics.  Kinsler has more range, a better glove, a better arm and is better at leaving his feet than Howie. 

[Scott34]

Again Scott, you're using defensive metrics.  Kinsler has more range, a better glove, a better arm and is better at leaving his feet than Howie. 

 

Range you say?

 

Kendrick

 

2012 range factor/gm: 4.51

2013 rf/g: 4.61

 

Kinsler

 

2012 rf/g: 4.09

2013 rf/g: 4.69

 

That's if you don't like UZR, which already showed that Kendrick is superior.

[Second Base]

Still using defensive metrics Scott.  discard them, until they've proven consistent and just compare skill set.  Kinsler > Kendrick.  By a lot. 

[Scott34]

Okay you can say that all you want, but you're literally discarding all of them which shows a lack of desire to keep up with the curve.

 

FWIW, I like Kendrick more than Kinsler defensively.  Kinsler's pivots are chunky and his hands occasionally turn to stone.

[tdawg87]

Dude you can't just throw out any and all stats and use just "your eyes" to base your point on. I mean come on.

[Stradling]

What a ridiculous argument. Based on my way of evaluating players Willits is the greatest player this league has ever seen, the rest of you are wrong.

[Stradling]

tdawg, yes he can because he is arguing he is right despite all the metrics that say he is wrong. I could understand not liking a certain metric, but I don't understand discarding all of them, but then again I know nothing about any of those metrics.