Placing Blame

[AngelsLakersFan]

So this board is kind of degrading into a who to place the blame on discussion. After reading through all this crap it's safe to say that there is no clear answer. We have daily articlestaking pot shots at everyone. Some blame Moreno, some Reagins, some Scioscia, others DiPoto. I have no idea who to really place the blame on. What we can look at are some of the facts...

 

• Arte Moreno fired Tony Reagins as a direct result of the Mike Napoli / Vernon Wells trade. 

 

 

• The biggest problem with this organization right now, beyond poor free agent spending, is a complete lack of organizational depth brought on by an organizational imperative to win now. This imperative goes all the way back to the Tony Reagins hiring and has continued up until this years trade deadline.

 

• Jerry DiPoto's free agent signings and trades have pretty much universally failed.

 

• The franchise was pretty successful throughout the Stoneman years and the first part of Reagins reign mostly due to a talented core assembled pre-Moreno / Reagins and filled with a series of generally successful free agent signings.

 

Beyond that there really isn't much to go on. I can't point the finger in any one direction but I can say, as someone who has never been a big Scioscia fan, it's hard to see this team getting any better simply by firing him.

[Ohtaniland]

Arte has been obsessed with outdoing the Dodgers and the Rangers. He's falling behind and it's not even close.

[shellback]

firing scioscia and his band of yes men wont make the team better. but it will make the team different. and different at this point would be a step in the right direction.

jmo arte aint gonna sell.

if di poto was a professional gambler, with the luck he's had this year he'd be in the soup line.

we need to cut to the chase and draft, develop and just get some pitching. with this offense, some good pitching would make everybody look alot smarter.

[tdawg87]

I blame God for telling Pujols to sign with the Angels.

[SoWhat]

I blame Kendry Morales. If he wouldn't have jumped on home plate, there'd be no Pujols or Wells

[markb]

 

• Arte Moreno fired Tony Reagins as a direct result of the Mike Napoli / Vernon Wells trade. 

 

 

I think that's always felt like a pretty safe assumption, but then Scott Miller's article had this little tidbit:

 

"When the decision was made to pursue Vernon Wells from Toronto before the 2011 season, a move Scioscia is said to have endorsed, it was Moreno, one source says, who threatened then-GM Tony Reagins with a firing if Reagins didn't consummate the deal within 24 hours."

 

If Reagins' job was threatened by not signing him, and then lost due to Wells' underperformance after signing him, well... talk about being set up as a patsy.  

 

If we're to believe even half of what has been written lately about this org, it sounds like being the GM in this org is a no-win situation, with excessive meddling coming from both above (Arte) and below (Scioscia).

[Glen]

I blame everybody that can't spell "Dipoto" correctly.

[Jikkle]

The reason why it's hard to place blame because almost everyone has a share in the blame.

 

Arte has his share of the blame because while I love the fact he truly wants to win he meddles too much and doesn't make the right moves to win.

 

Reagins is to blame not just for the Wells trade but because under his watch the farm system turned to complete garbage.

 

Scioscia is to blame because this team doesn't seem to have any fire and is poorly coached.  He's refused to fire any one on his staff even when it's clear they aren't effectively doing their jobs or the team needs a fresh perspective and a new voice.

 

Dipoto I'll give the biggest pass since he's got an owner that meddles and a manager that's not his that he doesn't see eye to eye with along with having a depleted farm system.  He has some share of the blame because most of the moves he's made haven't exactly panned out but on the flipside he's had to make those moves because there isn't anything in the farm.

 

Ultimately I place most of the blame on Reagins and Arte.  Arte is the head and in charge of getting the right people to do the job and Reagins because I feel the biggest thing killing the team right now is the lack of a strong farm system to bring up talent.  I say Scioscia needs to go or he at least needs to clean house with his staff and get people that are good at their jobs not guys he's buddies with.

[m0nkey]

I blame everybody that can't spell "Dipoto" correctly.

Don't forget iannetta

[Docwaukee]

I don't know who's responsible for what anymore. 

 

I'm less and less inclined to put as much of this on the shoulders of either Reagins or Dipoto. 

[seenoevil]

Dipoto is to blame.

 

Losing Segura for a rent a pitcher. That trade bit us in the ass.

 

Should had focus on pitching after losing Grienke instead of getting hamilton

[seenoevil]

I blame everybody that can't spell "Dipoto" correctly.

 

Diputo

[KingJustinian]

Everyone is so quick to place blame when it was a lot of things. And I don't understand why everyone goes straight to management and coaches instead of looking at the players themselves, a lot who are veterans who don't need coaches to baby them to tell them how to hit the ball and throw the ball. Their defense was pretty bad this year and players were also awful with runners in scoring position. Veterans also didn't produce like they should (I'm not saying like they did 5 years ago, but like they should be a lot better than they have). Apart from Blanton/trading Segura for a rental, and a few things here and there that Scioscia does that seem bad before the outcome, I don't blame them a whole lot. The one area that has been consistently bad has been the bullpen, but signing players to fix that is practically just luck and the teams with consistently good bullpens do it because they didn't trade away all their good arms in the minors. So, while it may take a few years to have a "great" bullpen, this team is still good enough to compete next year if a few things go right (i.e. injuries and certain players performing even close to expectations). I just don't see the reason to always want to fire the coach/GM when a lot of things that went wrong were out of their control, even if they did make a few mistakes. 

[Ohtaniland]

Arte has spent $551,521,783 million on players salaries since our last playoff game. He's gonna be pissed again this October.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

If we're to believe even half of what has been written lately about this org, it sounds like being the GM in this org is a no-win situation, with excessive meddling coming from both above (Arte) and below (Scioscia).

 

Makes you wonder why anyone would even want the job. 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

And I don't understand why everyone goes straight to management and coaches instead of looking at the players themselves, a lot who are veterans who don't need coaches to baby them to tell them how to hit the ball and throw the ball. 

 

The problem with this is the erroneous assumption that players don't ever need motivation or guidance once they become veterans. Players fall into bad habits mechanically all the time, and over the course of a 162-game season they can lose focus. They also may get complacent without proper leadership. If all you needed was a veteran roster, teams would just sign experienced players and not sign coaches or a manager.

 

The manager is there to determine the best lineup for each game and to make strategic decisions as it progresses. Coaches are there to observe each player and offer assistance when things aren't going well, and sometimes make suggestions as different game situations arise. When nothing is being fixed, the coaches aren't earning their keep.

[CaliAngel]

I blame Kendry Morales. If he wouldn't have jumped on home plate, there'd be no Pujols or Wells

 

Honestly, this.

 

This was a turning point in this organization. This brought forth a string of bad luck and bad contracts and bad acquisitions many of which the repurcussions we are still seeing to this day.

 

In May 2010 the Angels had momentum building up for a succesful season, and after the freak accident the momentum immediately stopped, and the entire situation was all so mindnumbing. The second Kendrys went down this organization suddenly felt like it was missing its piece, while waiting for his recovery it began to crumble, and in turn with his botched surgury, began a snowball effect towards failure and bad luck.

 

We did not see a playoff game that season, and we have not seen a playoff game since.

[KingJustinian]

The problem with this is the erroneous assumption that players don't ever need motivation or guidance once they become veterans. Players fall into bad habits mechanically all the time, and over the course of a 162-game season they can lose focus. They also may get complacent without proper leadership. If all you needed was a veteran roster, teams would just sign experienced players and not sign coaches or a manager.

 

The manager is there to determine the best lineup for each game and to make strategic decisions as it progresses. Coaches are there to observe each player and offer assistance when things aren't going well, and sometimes make suggestions as different game situations arise. When nothing is being fixed, the coaches aren't earning their keep.

 

They do give suggestions and such, but that's something that we as fans have no ability to evaluate. They could be giving all the "right" advice but it doesn't necessarily translate into on-field performance for the player, and we have no idea what the advice they are giving is.

[Brandon]

Everybody.

Arte dealing in personnel decisions on the field that strap a GM when you have a budget in place. And his goal is money and putting butts in seats with the signings.

I like the GM moves, but when they fail this bad you have to be accountable.

Coach out of his normal system of players and philosophies that he can't work with.

And the players who magically decided to play well below career averages and either decline horribly or just not give a shit to continue what they have been doing.

I put short term blame on the players and long term blame on Arte.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

They do give suggestions and such, but that's something that we as fans have no ability to evaluate. They could be giving all the "right" advice but it doesn't necessarily translate into on-field performance for the player, and we have no idea what the advice they are giving is.

 

I judge based upon results, and there haven't been any. For example, all of baseball knew last year that Ernesto Frieri was telegraphing his pitches. There was even a discussion documented on this board about Texas Rangers hitters talking about it around the batting cage. This entire board knew about the problem, yet our beloved pitching coach did nothing to correct it.

 

I don't necessarily blame the coaches if they can't fix a particular player. However, I can't name one player on the current roster who has shown any improvement under the current coaching staff, but I can name a bunch who have declined.

[Mark68]

Makes you wonder why anyone would even want the job. 

Andrew Friedman didn't.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Arte has been obsessed with outdoing the Dodgers and the Rangers. He's falling behind and it's not even close.

the rangers is fair, but the dodgers?

Forget about their last 50 games, and we've been better top to bottom for a decade.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I blame God for telling Pujols to sign with the Angels.

I don't want to start any blasphemous rumors, but I think that God has a sick sense of humor, and when I die, I expect to find him laaaah-fingg.

[stormngt]

 

 

• The franchise was pretty successful throughout the Stoneman years and the first part of Reagins reign mostly due to a talented core assembled pre-Moreno / Reagins and filled with a series of generally successful free agent signings.

 

 

 

If I am not mistaken the 2008 playoff roster was:

 

Napoli/Mathis C

Tex at 1b

Kendrick 2b

Figgins 3b

Aybar SS

 

Vladdy RF

Hunter CF or was it GMJ?

Rivera LF

 

Starting Pitchers:

Lackey

Weaver

Saunders

Santana

????

 

Bullpen led by 

KROD 

and 

Shields

 

Of that group the following were pre Moreno:

Figgins was a call up in 2012

Lackey  was a rookie

KROD was a rookie

Shields was a Rookie I believe

 

So how was the core pre-Moreno?

 

It would be better to say the core of the success of the past decade was Stoneman and pre Reagins

[stormngt]

I think that's always felt like a pretty safe assumption, but then Scott Miller's article had this little tidbit:

 

"When the decision was made to pursue Vernon Wells from Toronto before the 2011 season, a move Scioscia is said to have endorsed, it was Moreno, one source says, who threatened then-GM Tony Reagins with a firing if Reagins didn't consummate the deal within 24 hours."

 

If Reagins' job was threatened by not signing him, and then lost due to Wells' underperformance after signing him, well... talk about being set up as a patsy.  

 

If we're to believe even half of what has been written lately about this org, it sounds like being the GM in this org is a no-win situation, with excessive meddling coming from both above (Arte) and below (Scioscia).

 

Just goes to show you don't believe everything that is printed in press!