The thing I don't understand about Scioscia defenders

[Angel Oracle]

And Reynolds is much cheaper than Hackilton.

[WallyWorld]

I think the point most of us "Sosh defenders" are trying to make is that just changing managers isn't going to make this team any better.  It's not going to make the crap that is our pitching staff any less crap, it's not going to make Pujols four years younger and it's not going to speed up Hamilton's swing.

 

Go ahead and change the manager, but the roster better have a high turnover or this is what you are going to get, regardless of who's managing the team.

 

I don't disagree, in that I think the roster needs some serious changes as well.  But I would hate to see them bring in different players and still struggle because of the managing/coaching situation.  

[WallyWorld]

And Reynolds is much cheaper than Hackilton.

 

pretty sure he was comparing him to Trumbo.

[Angel Oracle]

pretty sure he was comparing him to Trumbo.

Good point, although both Reynolds (always so) and Trumbo (increasingly in 2013) do take walks, unlike Hackilton.

[Chimi]

I don't disagree, in that I think the roster needs some serious changes as well.  But I would hate to see them bring in different players and still struggle because of the managing/coaching situation.  

 

Then they need to bring in players that can strive under Scioscia's style of coaching which revolves around defense and being aggressive on the base paths, putting pressure on the opposing teams.  This includes getting rid of guys that have zero patience at the plate.  This team was better when guys like Aybar were hitting 9th in the order.  

 

Trade guys like Trumbo and Bourjos who just swing at junk all game long and couldn't work a count to save their lives.

[Inside Pitch]

I don't disagree, in that I think the roster needs some serious changes as well.  But I would hate to see them bring in different players and still struggle because of the managing/coaching situation.  

 

 

Whoever the manager is next year -- unless they fix the bullpen, this team isn't going anywhere. 

[Angel Oracle]

I never wanted a lineup of HR hitters back in the mid/late 2000s, just 3-4 in the MOTO surrounded by good OBP guys and solid defense and pitching. 

That has always been a great formula.

Even the 1975 and 1976 Big Red Machine teams (108 wins and 102 wins) only hit 124 HRs and 141 HRs in those 2 seasons.

[Inside Pitch]

I never wanted a lineup of HR hitters back in the mid/late 2000s, just 3-4 in the MOTO surrounded by good OBP guys and solid defense and pitching. 

That has always been a great formula.

Even the 1975 and 1976 Big Red Machine teams (108 wins and 102 wins) only hit 124 HRs and 141 HRs in those 2 seasons.

 

 

I think the move away from Salmon/Glaus to Vlad/Guillen etc etc started the Halos down a slippery slope.   You know those  Cinci teams were third and first in the NL in HRs, right.  I agree with your premise but 70s HR totals don't translate well to recent years.

[fan_since79]

We tried it with Mo Vaughn and the results were not that great.

[Mark68]

How can anyone say that the Francona/Red Sox comparison is meaningless? Apparently, it only took 4 years from a World Series championship for Francona to lose his team, Scioscia's one and only World Championship was 11 years ago. You don't think it's possible he's lost this team?

 

Yes, the Red Sox shed some bad contracts last year, but to shed bad contracts, they:

1) Had to have signed (or traded for) bad contracts; and

2) Had to have found a willing (sucker) partner to take those bad contracts off their hands. This is where the Sox were successful and the Angels won't be.

 

By the way, I remember a lot of people here laughing that Francona "had" to take a job with the "lowly" Cleveland Indians. The same "lowly" Indians who are now only 2.5 games out of the wild card, despite losing their last 3 in a row. Who's laughing now?

 

The point is, Scioscia's teams used to be fundamentally sound. Used to be. Despite popular opinion, fundamentals can be taught. It happens all the time. Bad fielders become good (or at least better) fielders, bad baserunners become better at running the bases, and yes, even bad hitters (or ones that swing at too many pitches they can't hit) can be taught to be better at those individual skills. This team has gotten bad at running the bases, and bad at fielding, EVEN THE SAME PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN HERE FOR YEARS are getting worse. If that is not on the on-field management and coaching, then you might as well eliminate those positions.

 

Scioscia has made many decisions during games that have been, at best, questionable, and, at worst, apocryphal.

 

Not to mention that this team, with few exceptions (the kids being notable), is playing stupid, uninspired baseball. They seem unprepared on a daily basis. You cannot blame that on anyone but the on-field management.

 

As for the argument of who replaces him, at this point, it really doesn't matter. I am not privy to the information that the front office has at its disposal, and neither is anybody else on here. There may be candidates out there worthy of an opportunity to manage this team. Remember, Scioscia himself was new to managing in the big leagues at the time of his hire. People seem to forget that.

 

What is happening in the here and now just is not working and needs to be changed in the off-season.

[Reveille1984]

So you're basically pointing out the team is scoring without the guys that were brought in to FIX the offense?  Grats....    BTW, Calhoun has been up for all of a week, including him as one of the guys who have morphed this team into a productive offense is comcal -- it's also worth pointing out that he was already in the system.    

 

You can go on being very literal -- the point I was making and the one I'm pretty sure other people were able to make out is that for many -- the Angels run prevention over run production style of play was dull.   The pursuit of offense, offense, offense while ignoring run prevention has come back to haunt this team -- I don't hate Ianetta like others do, but for all his ability to get on base, he's a net loss after you factor in his lack of a throwing game and piss poor receiving skills -- he also cost this team a young arm it didn't have the luxury of moving.  More and more studies have shown that RUN PREVENTION, tends to deliver better results than the other alternatives.  The Rangers have gone in the opposite direction we have, putting an onus on acquiring and keeping players who aid in preventing runs ..   Their teams now resemble our Scioscia type teams and the results they are getting are similar.    Ditto the A's.  

 

Remember how people here reveled at Dipoto excluding MS from the Pujols equation?   Remember people mocking MS for saying he wanted to see the team add more pitching that offseason?   I sure as hell do.

 

I'm saying nobody ever complained about run prevention and small ball, they complained about the offensive approach of the team.  Did I say Calhoun morphed anything?  Or that Iannetta was defensively good?  I'm saying we're going in a better offensive direction overall, and the fact that we are even without Pujols and Hamilton supports that idea.  You present your point of view as if run prevention and a good offense are mutually exclusive... you don't have to neglect one in pursuit of the other.  Every team improves what they can when they can.

 

What could we have pursued this offseason run prevention wise?  We had one of the best defensive teams in the game on paper.  Bourjos, Trout and Hamilton in the OF - looked good.  Gold glove shortstop, plus defensive third baseman in Callaspo, average to good defense from Kendrick.  And remember last year when we had Weaver, Wilson, Haren, Greinke, and Santana? Everyone raved about how good our pitching staff would be, yet we still weren't even close to the playoffs.  I'd say everything looked well set up to prevent a lot of runs.  And last offseason the pitching market sucked outside of Greinke, we signed Burnett who had been solid for years.  How have we been "neglecting run prevention"?  What should/could we have done differently?

 

A lot of people here like to repeatedly use hindsight to support their arguments of what should have been done even though things didn't look so bad at the time.  Nobody was complaining when we got rid of Chatwood and his 5 BB/9, yet now that he's coming around a little we're starting to see the "Dipoto shipped out a great pitcher for a shitty catcher!" posts.  There's a lot of other similar examples of this. And Oakland and Texas aren't doing anything dramatically different, they just have good pitching and depth due to deep farm systems and we don't.  Not exactly rocket science.  

[Marsaka]

I think the point most of us "Sosh defenders" are trying to make is that just changing managers isn't going to make this team any better.  It's not going to make the crap that is our pitching staff any less crap, it's not going to make Pujols four years younger and it's not going to speed up Hamilton's swing.

 

Go ahead and change the manager, but the roster better have a high turnover or this is what you are going to get, regardless of who's managing the team.

 

So you're saying the team wouldn't play better with a more motivating manager? Judging by your post I doubt you ever had a job.  Managers at my company make the difference between motivated and unmotivated employees which make a difference in company results.  That's why it's key to getting a good manager.

 

But apparently baseball is not a part of the real world according to you.

[eaterfan]

Hamilton isn't hitting HR's because he's not motivated to? That's always been my problem too. I'd be a 40 HR guy if I would have had more motivating managers back in Little League.

[Inside Pitch]

 

I'm saying nobody ever complained about run prevention and small ball, they complained about the offensive approach of the team.  Did I say Calhoun morphed anything?  Or that Iannetta was defensively good?  I'm saying we're going in a better offensive direction overall, and the fact that we are even without Pujols and Hamilton supports that idea.  You present your point of view as if run prevention and a good offense are mutually exclusive... you don't have to neglect one in pursuit of the other.  Every team improves what they can when they can.

 

What could we have pursued this offseason run prevention wise?  We had one of the best defensive teams in the game on paper.  Bourjos, Trout and Hamilton in the OF - looked good.  Gold glove shortstop, plus defensive third baseman in Callaspo, average to good defense from Kendrick.  And remember last year when we had Weaver, Wilson, Haren, Greinke, and Santana? Everyone raved about how good our pitching staff would be, yet we still weren't even close to the playoffs.  I'd say everything looked well set up to prevent a lot of runs.  And last offseason the pitching market sucked outside of Greinke, we signed Burnett who had been solid for years.  How have we been "neglecting run prevention"?  What should/could we have done differently?

 

A lot of people here like to repeatedly use hindsight to support their arguments of what should have been done even though things didn't look so bad at the time.  Nobody was complaining when we got rid of Chatwood and his 5 BB/9, yet now that he's coming around a little we're starting to see the "Dipoto shipped out a great pitcher for a shitty catcher!" posts.  There's a lot of other similar examples of this. And Oakland and Texas aren't doing anything dramatically different, they just have good pitching and depth due to deep farm systems and we don't.  Not exactly rocket science.  

 

First let me say I appreciate your response..  You make solid points and I like the way you're stating your opinions..  

 

Now that you know I respect what you're saying..   spare me the hindsight stuff...  I wasn't on board with the Hanson trade and questioned the make-up of the pen from the start.  I was also one of the very few that hadn't punted completely on Santana -- but, I didn't really bitch when they moved him either.  I had accepted that they had grown tired of his inconsistency.

 

Getting back to what I was saying and we seem to be getting away from. IMO, I'm correctly pointing out that many here were so obsessed with adding offense they didn't seem to pay attention as the team got farther and father away from run prevention.  You lumped  Ianetta in with the other bats that helped to make the offense better -- which is fine, but he's a complete zero defensively and he cost the team an arm.  While he's not the end of the world, he's an example of that change in direction and how it's impacted the team. Now, if you don't feel that any of that applied to you -- then it's not aimed at you and you can unruffle your feathers.  To be honest, the comment isn't directed at ANYONE specifically but rather that group think that you can't deny existed here.  You can argue that the team didn't punt on run prevention so much as it felt it would obtain it in some non-traditional ways but, that was a gamble...

 

Personally, I don't blame anyone for the defensive implosion, but the lack of attention to the pen coupled with the suspect nature of the rotation was IMO shortsighted and again... I have said that from day one.  I never had a problem with the guys they signed, I had a problem with them signing guys who had not yet shown themselves able to throw and calling it a day.  When you have guys with a propensity to throw a lot of pitches and be out of games early, a strong bullpen is a must have -- we never had that.

[tdawg87]

Mike Scioscia does some dumb shit. His lineups can often be head-scratchers. His bullpen decision are often questionable at best, and downright insane at worst. That said, there is absolutely nothing that he can do to make Josh Hamilton start hitting again. To make Tommy Hanson a quality starter. To make Frieri a good closer. To make the defense do basic fundamental things that are taught in little league. Mike Scioscia is not a psychologist. It's not his job to turn these guys into baseball robots. I often see the argument that the team isn't motivated and they don't have their heads in the game and that this falls on Mike. I honestly don't see what he can do to "motivate" them other than giving pep talks and getting on their cases for doing something stupid. Either way it's ultimately up to the player to decide how "motivated" he is. They aren't soldiers. They aren't dogs to be house broken. They are normal adults playing a game for a living. Do you blame your supervisor at work for "lack of motivation" when you completely **** up? Since the world isn't Office Space, my guess is no.

 

I do believe it is time for a change next year, and I think the entire coaching staff needs to go. I just don't know why people expect a complete turn around in Mike's absence. This year sucks, and Mike should take some of the blame for that, but so should all the underperforming ****wads this team is littered with.

[Inside Pitch]

Tdawg just hit for the cycle and pitched a perfect game in one post.

[Brandon]

I like the dude that says his performance is related to how motivated his manager makes him.

Bravo.

[mtangelsfan]

So you're saying the team wouldn't play better with a more motivating manager? Judging by your post I doubt you ever had a job.  Managers at my company make the difference between motivated and unmotivated employees which make a difference in company results.  That's why it's key to getting a good manager.

 

But apparently baseball is not a part of the real world according to you.

 

Judging by your post I would say you have Asperger's Syndrome.

[tdawg87]

Nothing wrong with ass burgers.

[Angel Oracle]

I think the move away from Salmon/Glaus to Vlad/Guillen etc etc started the Halos down a slippery slope.   You know those  Cinci teams were third and first in the NL in HRs, right.  I agree with your premise but 70s HR totals don't translate well to recent years.

I knew how down HRs were until 1977, but hadn't realized how far down they had come.   To lead a league with only 141 HRs and to finish 3rd with just 124 HR?

 

You are right in that Salmon/Glaus represented power and OBP, and we lost the OBP by the mid 2000s. 

 

 

T-Dawgs' post is where I'm coming from too.    Changing the manager/coaching staff by itself won't totally fix the issues.   But it could be a good beginning to get someone fresh in there.    Then follow that up with continued farm system improvement and BETTER acquisitions/signings.    This is a multi pronged attack that is required.

[Stradling]

So you're saying the team wouldn't play better with a more motivating manager? Judging by your post I doubt you ever had a job. Managers at my company make the difference between motivated and unmotivated employees which make a difference in company results. That's why it's key to getting a good manager.

But apparently baseball is not a part of the real world according to you.

Marsaka, how many of the employees at your job have guaranteed contracts? How many are multi-millionaires? How many of them are primadonas? How many of the employees were the very best at what they did growing up and were catered to constantly? To compare what you do for a living to what MLB is like is absurd.

[Marsaka]

I never mentioned Hamilton, Im talking bout the entire team. 

 

Not learning from their mistakes, mental lapses on defesne and baserunning.  The baserunning issues have been going on for what, 5 years now?  Pujols and Hamilton come here and do the same stupid stuff on the basepaths.  Opposing teams running at will, no adjustments being made by the pitchers or defenders.

 

Everything is sloppy.  Instead of Scioscia working with them on fixing these issues, he tells the reporters this isnt the instructional league?  LOL  it's your job to fix Issues if they arise and improve the team.  Mike Scioscia is a lazy unmotivating slug, and it reflects on the rest of the team.   he needs to be fired.

[Marsaka]

Hamilton isn't hitting HR's because he's not motivated to? That's always been my problem too. I'd be a 40 HR guy if I would have had more motivating managers back in Little League.

 

Maybe your problem is you can't read properly?  Team = not Hamilton.

[tdawg87]

Hamilton is a part of the team and a significant part of the problem.

[ettin]

Boy I hate losing seasons. More importantly I hate losing seasons back-to-back-to-back-to-back.

 

Sometimes we all need a fresh look and a new voice. I have defended S-C-I-O-S-C-I-A over the last couple of years but beyond what you may or may not think about his managerial skills it seems like it might be time for a change in Anaheim. Maybe Mike needs a change too?

 

If the Angels don't fire him (or trade him) this offseason, he should be on a short leash to start 2014. As a leader you ultimately have to take responsibility for the success or lack of success of those you lead. Mike has had four disappointing seasons in a row and it is time for the Angels to really evaluate what each and every component of this team is doing to drive the club towards success. Those that are standing in the way of that should be cast-off the boat.