The thing I don't understand about Scioscia defenders

[ettin]

Boy I hate losing seasons. More importantly I hate losing seasons back-to-back-to-back-to-back.

 

Sometimes we all need a fresh look and a new voice. I have defended S-C-I-O-S-C-I-A over the last couple of years but beyond what you may or may not think about his managerial skills it seems like it might be time for a change in Anaheim. Maybe Mike needs a change too?

 

If the Angels don't fire him (or trade him) this offseason, he should be on a short leash to start 2014. As a leader you ultimately have to take responsibility for the success or lack of success of those you lead. Mike has had four disappointing seasons in a row and it is time for the Angels to really evaluate what each and every component of this team is doing to drive the club towards success. Those that are standing in the way of that should be cast-off the boat.

 

I should clarify a bit. I still think S-C-I-O-S-C-I-A is an effective manager to a degree. He did make some blundered calls this year that shined the spotlight on his managerial skills. I also think he is organized and understands the game very well compared to other managers.

 

However the point I am trying to make is that it seems like the message that Mike is sending out has grown stale somehow. Whether it is the way Mike delivers it or some type of clubhouse chemistry issue it "feels" like the team is drifting and not maximizing its potential.

 

Yes it could simply be player performance. I am not in the clubhouse day to day and neither are the rest of you. It could be a lot of things. Speculation and observation are all we have and it is clear that the team seems disoriented at times. Mike is the leader of this team and it is his ultimate responsibility whether it is player performance or bad leadership that is impacting our ability to win.

 

I am all about giving people another chance. As I said Mike should have a short leash in 2014 if he is kept. If I were him I would consider upturning the apple cart in Spring Training and get the guys in as early as possible and just switch up what he has normally done and "shock" the players a little to get them focused and on point.

[Vladfan]

So if Scioscia has nothing to do with what the team does now then he obviously had nothing to do with the play the last decade, right?  So why should we hold onto him?

 

The players on the field have a lot more to do with it.

[Stradling]

Next year we will have a new manager and it won't change too much. It will take a year or two to really incorporate a new philosophy. If we do get a manager that truly is of Dipoto's mindset you will see guys like Howie and possibly Aybar traded although I don't see Aybar going anywhere. Howie will be replaced by Green who seems to know how to take a walk based on his minor league numbers.

[tomsred]

Next year we will have a new manager and it won't change too much. It will take a year or two to really incorporate a new philosophy. If we do get a manager that truly is of Dipoto's mindset you will see guys like Howie and possibly Aybar traded although I don't see Aybar going anywhere. Howie will be replaced by Green who seems to know how to take a walk based on his minor league numbers.

I think you are right Stradling on all the points you made.  Dipoto won't stop until he has changed everything.  Unfortunately, his replacements aren't exactly wonderful, and I have no confidence that he has a reliable plan.  By the time he finishes his little experiment, this organization could be completely trashed.

[SoWhat]

Hire Matt Williams to manage, promote Vizquel to bench coach & get a real pitching coach.

[Stradling]

I'm willing to give Dipoto another year, maybe two. I believe you can't totally judge him until he has his type of manager. As far as the players he has signed or traded for they haven't worked out and they have been incredibly expensive. But here is how I see it. I feel as though he has been working on a budget, and not in the same sense as Billy Beane. I am confident that both Hamilton and Pujols were Arte's decision. So after those two were signed he had to make due with the budget that was left. Madson was a mistake, Blanton was a huge mistake. We ALL liked the Burnett signing, but he has been injured. As far as Walden for Hanson, I have no problem trading an inconsistent relief pitcher with control problems for a relatively young starting pitcher that has had very good success but could be damaged goods. I will always trade an inconsistent reliever with upside for an inconsistent starter with possible upside. CJ Wilson was a solid signing. Dane DLR has been a nice pick up. On the offensive side, I think Shuck has been a nice addition and Cowgill doesn't look over-matched. He also made a trade that none of us would have that would be possible when he got Green for Callaspo. Lastly, I think we will be happy with his draft results a few years from now. While Maronde hasn't been outstanding, he was a Dipoto draft pick, and Dipoto has been on the job a little over 18 months. I say we give him a little time and see if his plan works. One more thing, even though I believe that Arte was behind the two biggest signings, I think it was Dipoto that negotiated those contracts. I have no doubt that he will be able to negotiate the Trout contract when the team sees fit.

[kevinb]

Dipoto should be fired first before Mike goes. Dipoto if anything has ran this organization into the ground. Mike can't win games if he's been given a giant turd of a team

[kevinb]

It's Arte's fault for Pujols and Hamilton but its Reagins fault for trading for Haren trading Napoli for Wells. Man I love logic

[stormngt]

Forgive me if I decided not to read all the crap that is posted on this board for six pages.  But to answer the question since I still defend Scioscia.

 

As I mentioned in another thread, one reason why I still support him is that the criticism against him is often so ridiculous that its like crying wolf.  It discredit legit complaints about the man.  For example, those bit***** about Calhoun being platooned.  It makes a lot of sense to me that when you bring up a rookie that you put him in the best situation for him to succeed.  Its called building confidence.  That doesn't mean the man will be platooned his whole career!

 

Now to focus on question:

 

First, the manager is ultimately responsible for winning.  When the team isn't winning, the manager fairly or unfairly will get the blame.  I understand that and I believe Sosh WOULD BE fired at the end of the year if he wasn't guaranteed another 25 million. You don't swallow 25 million dollar investment unless you have to.  Which brings to my second point, I do not believe Scioscia is the problem to the Angels.  I believe the problem is personal.  Over the last four years I do not believe the Angels have had the personal to win the division.  (Last year it looked on paper that they had the personal, but Pujols tanking and the Pen clearly weakened the team).  

 

In 2010 the Angels had a middle order lineup of Bobby Abreu, Juan Rivera, and Hideki Matsui.  That group hardly  puts the fear of God into pitchers.  The front office took a gamble and did not rebuild that year.  That was a mistake.  They relied on Morales and the fearsome threesome I mentioned.  Morales goes down and the threesome couldn't get the job done!  Plus the team relied on Brandon Wood who turned out to be a bust.  Add the fact that our bullpen sucked! Our outfield defense was so bad, we had to rush the promotion of Bourjos just to make sure Hunter didn't break down.  I think Scioscia should have gotten manager of the year just for going 80-82 during with that personal.

 

In 2011, the Angels front office relied too much on Morales coming back and did not sigh any offensive help.  However, they did bring us the worst trade in Angel history.  Napoli for Wells.  Yes, many here will say it was Scioscia's fault that Napoli was traded.  Well first, I would argue that it was only conjecture and there is no actual substantiation to that fact.  However, even if Scioscia wanted to trade Napoli, it certainly wasn't him that traded him for Wells.  Wonderful, you take a team with no offensive punch and you trade away your best power hitter for a guy with the worst contract in the majors.  How bad is that offense?  Well Howie Kendrick was our best offensive producer with a powerful .803 OPS.  Rookie Mark Trumbo (someone at the time no one though would be anything but a replacement type player) was our second best with .768 OPS.  Hell Peter Bourjos was tied with Tori Hunter for third and fourth with .765 OPS.  Let me remind you, that is the same PBJ that half of this board thought wasn't a major league hitter the following year!  Our starting pitching was strong, but once again, our bull pen sucked!  Sosh should have been manager of the year, just getting that group over 500!

 

In 2012, I will concede we had the personal to win the division.  However, we were still flawed because for the third straight year, OUR BULLPEN SUCKED!  I do believe Sosh did a poor job getting the team prepared in April as our offense started slow.  Add that to the fact, that Sosh was trying to play too many players.  I keep thinking if things would have been different had the trade for Abrea would have gone through in spring training.  However, the one key guy who was supposed to solve our offensive failures, Pujols struggled the first month and the team struggled.  Then the starters blew up in August. This probably happened because they had to pitch in deep games because???? well our bull pen sucked!

 

This year?  I called it early.  I did not think we had the team to make the playoffs.  I was hopeful, but did not think we had the personal.  Why?  Well, Blanton and Hanson!  We were pretty much accepting losses 40% of the time which turned to 60% of the time when Weaver went down and later Vargas went down.  That...and for the fourth straight year, OUR BULLPEN SUCKS!

 

You see, I think only Jesus Christ pulling off miracles could get this team into the playoffs, so I do not see Sosh as the problem.  I see it as a player personal problem which is the GMs responsibility.  We need pitching, so we spend 145 million for a right fielder when our previous right fielder wanted to stay with us and was an All Star this year.  Oh, and the 145 million right fielder this year SUCKS.  That is not Scioscia fault.

 

Yes, I know many managers in similar situations are fired because he isn't willing no matter what the reason.  You are right.  I do not think the Angels should spend 25 million to buy out Scioscia unless we know we will get the improvement we want.  I don't think we will!  If Arte has 25 million to give away I would rather it go to TROUT for an extension.

 

Finally, someone asks why can't we do what Boston did.  Well first, Francona wasn't bought out by the Red Sox.  He was let go because his contract was up and the Sox did not want to resign him.  Second, the Red Sox brought in Valentine and was the laughing stock of the league.  I wonder how ARTE would feel if he paid Sosh 25 million not to manage his team and we get a manager like Valentine.  BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASKS FOR!

 

I remember when i used to  complain about Stoneman.  I used to nit pick every thing he may have done wrong or didn't do right.  Just like all you guys regarding Sosh.  I celebrated when Stoneman resigned, just like I am sure all you guys will do when Sosh finally leaves.  The Angels were winning division title after division title at the time.  We ended up getting Reagins.  So once again, I will tell you BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR!

[RePLAY]

Cant believe you guys blame Scioscia.  Never forget 2002.

[TroutAdell]

The biggest head scratcher to me is platooning Calhoun and Cowgill. I can't think of another manager who would do something that stupid. You are out of the race and you platoon a top prospect with a Rriple A "journey man." Really?

You play Ianneta over Conger. Really?

[Vegas Halo Fan]

It's Arte's fault for Pujols and Hamilton but its Reagins fault for trading for Haren trading Napoli for Wells. Man I love logic

 

I don't see anything wrong with it. Trades and free agent signings are completely different processes.

[Link]

The biggest head scratcher to me is platooning Calhoun and Cowgill. I can't think of another manager who would do something that stupid. You are out of the race and you platoon a top prospect with a Rriple A "journey man." Really?

You play Ianneta over Conger. Really?

 

 

I've said it in another thread and I'll say it again.  Kole is great and deserves a chance but Cowgill is no journeyman and I don't get the hate.  He was drafted 3 rounds before Calhoun and it's not like he's been given a ton of chances and failed.  Over 6 minor league seasons his average is over .290, OPS over .840, and he's stolen as many as 30 bases in only 98 games (and was caught only 3 times).  He's had less than 300 at bats at the major league level, scattered between 4 different teams and 3 different seasons.  He hasn't really had the chance to prove if he's capable or not and he's playing above average defense with good speed and a solid average here in Anaheim.  I don't think he's going to be an all-star or anything but he certainly has the capability to be much more than a journeyman.  

[stormngt]

The biggest head scratcher to me is platooning Calhoun and Cowgill. I can't think of another manager who would do something that stupid. You are out of the race and you platoon a top prospect with a Rriple A "journey man." Really?

You play Ianneta over Conger. Really?

 

Like I said, some of your complaints are really stupid.  It makes perfect sense to have a rookie be platooned when he first comes up.  It puts them in a better position to be successful and builds confidence.  

 

There are some legit complaints on scioscia but its complaints like this that discredits those.

[Vladfan]

Like I said, some of your complaints are really stupid. It makes perfect sense to have a rookie be platooned when he first comes up. It puts them in a better position to be successful and builds confidence.

There are some legit complaints on scioscia but its complaints like this that discredits those.

Bingo!!!

[tomsred]

Bingo!!!

I agree.  I think the organization has transitioned from being immediately successful to getting a good look at the inventory.  The player decisions for each game aren't necessarily going to be the ones giving the team the best chance to win, but the ones who give the organization the most information about player ceilings and capabilities.  And it is not the top starting positions on the line, it's positions 15-25.  Those are just as important as players 1-15.

[disarcina]

Well, put me down as a Scioscia 'defender' or 'apologist' I guess.

 

Although, I, too, am frustrated by the lack of performance over the past three seasons when the team has played (from day one of the season) below expectations.

 

there were injury and other reasons to point to, but when it runs over three seasons, well -- at some point, even if it's not all the manager's fault, there has to be a change of direction and some one has to take the fall --- usually it's the manager -- and we've already parted ways with GM successor to Stoneman.

 

This thread started out with comparing and contrasting with the Boston situation -- but I wouldn't put Scioscia in the same category as the Bobby Valentine situation in Boston. Not sure why but that Valentine hiring seemed toxic and doomed from the start........and then it just got worse.

 

I'm not clamoring for Scioscia's removal -- but if this year's finish doesn't do it, not sure what will..........and he's signed through 2018 or something.

 

So I think he stays and if he does go -- either this off-season or next -- he might get kicked upstairs as Special Assistant to the Owner or something.......

 

And right now it looks like Donnie Baseball Mattingly's job is secure up the freeway -- a few months ago it appeared that the first LA manager to get fired would be him -- so the chances of Dodgers swooping in to quickly hire a fired Scosicia isn't in the cards any more.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

This thread started out with comparing and contrasting with the Boston situation -- but I wouldn't put Scioscia in the same category as the Bobby Valentine situation in Boston. Not sure why but that Valentine hiring seemed toxic and doomed from the start........and then it just got worse.

 

Part of the reason, IMO, is that Red Sox management assured players during the offseason that they would not hire a field manager like Valentine, then they hired Valentine himself. The players may have been just as angry at them as they were at Valentine, because they lied to them.

[tomsred]

So they're fragile pussies?  

 

Interesting.  

Not really, we are just living in a baseball era where the players are far more powerful than managers or coaches.  It is like the Teamsters Union of the 50's and 60's.

[stormngt]

Not really, we are just living in a baseball era where the players are far more powerful than managers or coaches.  It is like the Teamsters Union of the 50's and 60's.

 

very good point!