The thing I don't understand about Scioscia defenders

[m0nkey]

What does one have to do with the other monkey?

Francona has two chips. Sure they had a historic collapse, but they still won twice during a successful run with him there. Scioscia has one title, which shouldn't be overlooked, but if you think francona shouldve been canned then you can't use the title to defend scioscia

[mtangelsfan]

1.  I couldn't care less what the Red Sox do.

2.  I think losing a clubhouse like that and losing is worse than just losing.

 

Regardless, I've said I think Mike should find greener pastures at the end of the season (but that doesn't mean I expect the new manager to do any better)

[fan_since79]

I'm not the type of person to call for management's head.

 

But I find myself shaking my head at some of his decisions.  Some he makes night in and night out.  And it's happened more and more this season than ever.

 

Hamilton in the 3-spot is a real head scratcher.

[WallyWorld]

I'm sure the reason the Sox are doing better is because of the manager not because Pedroia came back and they have a very different team than last season. It's definitely not that they traded away a bunch of over paid past their prime veterans for good young players that represented a major upgrade in talent.

 

I agree there are other factors at play, but you think it's just coincidence that Farrel (a manager the players like and respect) arrives and the team plays better?

[mtangelsfan]

I agree there are other factors at play, but you think it's just coincidence that Farrel (a manager the players like and respect) arrives and the team plays better?

 

1.  Most players like and respect Sosh

2.  What in Dipoto's or Arte's history makes you believe they would pick the right manager next time.

3.  The Sox got rid of bad contracts, they didn't add them.

[Inside Pitch]

I don't think it's Scioscia's fault as much as people make it out to be. But I do understand there has to be a fall guy somewhere. When this team was successful, it was built completely different. They had solid pitching, solid bullpen, were aggressive but smart on the base paths, and played great defense. They manufactured runs by getting on base, moving runners, going first to third. They don't do that anymore. We have too many free swingers on this team. That's why I don't think Trumbo has a place on this team. He's a one dimensional player and that doesn't fit into what Mike Scioscia does. Remember back when everyone was raving over the Mike Scioscia style of baseball? Then the Angels started getting players who didn't fit that mold and crappy pitchers and look where they are now.

 

 

The funny thing is that there are plenty of reports praising the Rangers for going for the extra base, pitching well, and playing defense.   All of which were the trademarks of the winning Angels teams... the same brand of baseball fans were sick of.  

 

 

Those days are long gone.  But hey, they hit more HRs now.

[WallyWorld]

re: "fault" - of course it's not Scioscia's fault that the team is playing poorly, just as it can never directly be the manager's fault - they aren't the ones playing.  But if you're trying to tell me that Scioscia as manager isn't part of the reason the team is where it is, then you're saying managers have zero effect on teams' performance, and that simply isn't true.  If for no other reason, doesn't everyone think it's time to try something new?  Clearly the current situation is broken.

[WallyWorld]

1.  Most players like and respect Sosh

2.  What in Dipoto's or Arte's history makes you believe they would pick the right manager next time.

3.  The Sox got rid of bad contracts, they didn't add them.

 

1) not sure that's true.  It's an assumption a lot of people have been living with for years, but we really don't know if it's true, and frankly we have more evidence to the contrary in recent years.

2) this isn't about who would replace him, it's about whether his presence is hurting the ballclub.  If you're resorting to that argument, then I suspect you agree that Scioscia is hurting the team.

3) no argument, dumping those contracts was part of their turnaround.  But you honestly think that's the whole story?

[mtangelsfan]

1. agree to disagree

2. of course it has to be about who replaces him. 

3. not all but some.

[eaterfan]

I agree there are other factors at play, but you think it's just coincidence that Farrel (a manager the players like and respect) arrives and the team plays better?

 

I think it has more to do with the talent upgrade. A lot of those players still liked and respected Francona and that's why they were so upset Valentine was hired. I won't even argue that Valentine did poorly because they didn't like him. I think he did poorly because A) they didn't have the talent and Valentine is bad at strategy. Did Mattingly suddenly become smarter in June this year? Did he suddenly get more respected? No. It was a talent upgrade from returning Ramirez, calling up Puig and getting Greinke back.

 

I think Scioscia still knows the strategy and the odds of finding a better manager are very slim.

[Inside Pitch]

 

 

Regardless, I've said I think Mike should find greener pastures at the end of the season (but that doesn't mean I expect the new manager to do any better)

 

I agree -- MS cant look at this team and think -- yeah, this is the sort of baseball I grew up playing.  I think weak GMs have hurt Mike Scioscia in many ways.  Bill Stoneman was always the guy who made the call player wise in the past and there was never any question who was calling the shots.   Since then, we have had a guy that everyone agrees was a dolt and may have been MS's gopher and a guy who has been declared brilliant but apparently has a yellow streak anytime Arte walks into a room.

 

Mike is far from perfect, the contact play is forever my biggest beef with the guy but the silly stuff like his not taking blame or his being a bad quote..  Whatever...

 

This team's make-up sucks.  Dipoto built it expecting a level of performance and it didn't happen, sometimes that's just how it works out, I don't really think anyone would have predicted the defense turning to mush or Hamilton turning into a rich mans Francour....  But signing two guys who couldn't even throw a ball to "fix" the pen was a monumental failure on his part.  The fact that it's been an issue since the year before he got here -- well, that makes it worse IMO.

 

We simply can't point at any one aspect of this game where the Angels are better at the MLB than they were pre-Dipoto..   Well, except hitting HRs.

 

I don't think MS can win with the team he has, and I have my doubts Dipoto has the backbone to really claim and lead this team.

[Reveille1984]

The funny thing is that there are plenty of reports praising the Rangers for going for the extra base, pitching well, and playing defense.   All of which were the trademarks of the winning Angels teams... the same brand of baseball fans were sick of.  

 

 

Those days are long gone.  But hey, they hit more HRs now.

 

We're in the top third of baseball in runs scored, and that's with an injured/mediocre Pujols and a non-existent Hamilton.  We've actually scored more runs than the Rangers this year.  Those damn HR's! 

 

And who was sick of good pitching and defense?  What people were sick of was a bunch of undisciplined slap hitters swinging at everything and Hatcher's hitting philosophy.  Now that we have guys like Pujols, Trout, Calhoun, Iannetta and etc. that actually have an idea of what the strike zone is, the offense has been much more stable (5th in OBP, 12th in BB's, 4th in OPS in all of baseball).  

 

Terrible pitching has been our downfall for years now, and it just happens to be when every team in baseball is hoarding pitching prospects like nobody's business.  

[yk9001]

2.  What in Dipoto's or Arte's history makes you believe they would pick the right manager next time.

 

That is probably the most accurate - and depressing thing about this.

[Troll Daddy]

Hamilton in the 3-spot is a real head scratcher.

What makes you think that's Mike decision ... because he writes the lineup card?

[Angel Oracle]

29th in ERA

27th in WHIP

25th in BAA

 

It's pretty amazing that the Halos aren't further under .500 than they are.  If anything, Scioscia should be commended.

 

So much misdirected rage on here, it's kind of baffling.  

Which is partly why Trout should be no worse than 2nd/3rd in AL MVP race, if he keeps going like this for the rest of the season.

Without Trout, they are likely some 20-25 games under .500 right now and in the running for the #2 overall pick. 

[Inside Pitch]

We're in the top third of baseball in runs scored, and that's with an injured/mediocre Pujols and a non-existent Hamilton.  We've actually scored more runs than the Rangers this year.  Those damn HR's! 

 

And who was sick of good pitching and defense?  What people were sick of was a bunch of undisciplined slap hitters swinging at everything and Hatcher's hitting philosophy.  Now that we have guys like Pujols, Trout, Calhoun, Iannetta and etc. that actually have an idea of what the strike zone is, the offense has been much more stable (5th in OBP, 12th in BB's, 4th in OPS in all of baseball).  

 

Terrible pitching has been our downfall for years now, and it just happens to be when every team in baseball is hoarding pitching prospects like nobody's business.  

 

So you're basically pointing out the team is scoring without the guys that were brought in to FIX the offense?  Grats....    BTW, Calhoun has been up for all of a week, including him as one of the guys who have morphed this team into a productive offense is comcal -- it's also worth pointing out that he was already in the system.    

 

You can go on being very literal -- the point I was making and the one I'm pretty sure other people were able to make out is that for many -- the Angels run prevention over run production style of play was dull.   The pursuit of offense, offense, offense while ignoring run prevention has come back to haunt this team -- I don't hate Ianetta like others do, but for all his ability to get on base, he's a net loss after you factor in his lack of a throwing game and piss poor receiving skills -- he also cost this team a young arm it didn't have the luxury of moving.  More and more studies have shown that RUN PREVENTION, tends to deliver better results than the other alternatives.  The Rangers have gone in the opposite direction we have, putting an onus on acquiring and keeping players who aid in preventing runs ..   Their teams now resemble our Scioscia type teams and the results they are getting are similar.    Ditto the A's.  

 

Remember how people here reveled at Dipoto excluding MS from the Pujols equation?   Remember people mocking MS for saying he wanted to see the team add more pitching that offseason?   I sure as hell do.

[Inside Pitch]

What makes you think that's Mike decision ... because he writes the lineup card?

 

 

If its not his decision then he has no backbone either...

[Angel Oracle]

I'm sure the reason the Sox are doing better is because of the manager not because Pedroia came back and they have a very different team than last season. It's definitely not that they traded away a bunch of over paid past their prime veterans for good young players that represented a major upgrade in talent.

It's too bad we don't have a good enough package (without hurting the farm too much) to include Hackilton in a trade. 

 

And to what Reveille said, thank goodness we drafted as many pitchers as we did this season.   Only the college group can be expected to produce MLB ready pitching within the next 3 years, but it is a start towards rebuilding the disgusting MLB pitching beyond Weaver, Wilson, and Vargas and maybe Richards in the rotation, and Williams in the pen.

[Angel Oracle]

Also look at the Twins in the Tom Kelly years.   Similar to Scioscia and the Halos, good success early on, but the times began to wane by the late 1990s before Kelly resigned after the 2000 season (15 seasons).   Gardenhire comes in, and they make the ALCS in his 2nd season and continue that through all of the 2000s.   Now, the Twins have been questionable the past 3 seasons.

I wonder if Gardenhire is thinking of greener pastures after 13 seasons.

 

14 years is a long time in one job today.   Think of your current job.   Is it one that you can stay at for longer than 14 years, and still deliver pretty much as well as you did the first few years?

[nate]

Yeah, the Angels players are drinking beer and eating fried chicken during the games and Weaver during his DL stint was out playing golf every day.

 

What I don't understand about Scioscia haters is how far from reality their logic goes in making comparisons.

 

It was established that many pitchers play golf on their off days.  Including Angels pitchers.

 

Also, Francona is doing a much better job than Scioscia is.

 

People are still riding on past success and can't tell that these teams are much different than the ones that Scioscia had success with.  Not to mention he has lost several coaches that pretty obviously made him smarter.  If nothing else he is not qualified to manage the team we have now.  Just look how poor their preparedness and fundamentals are.

[fan_since79]

Angel players will have early tee times this Fall. 

 

I'm tired of losing every year when we field a team expected to win.

[mtangelsfan]

I think the point most of us "Sosh defenders" are trying to make is that just changing managers isn't going to make this team any better.  It's not going to make the crap that is our pitching staff any less crap, it's not going to make Pujols four years younger and it's not going to speed up Hamilton's swing.

 

Go ahead and change the manager, but the roster better have a high turnover or this is what you are going to get, regardless of who's managing the team.

[Caralho]

That's fine by me, change a lot of the players and the manager. If Dipoto can't get it done next year he can go too. Playoffs or bust.

[Angel Oracle]

I think the point most of us "Sosh defenders" are trying to make is that just changing managers isn't going to make this team any better.  It's not going to make the crap that is our pitching staff any less crap, it's not going to make Pujols four years younger and it's not going to speed up Hamilton's swing.

 

Go ahead and change the manager, but the roster better have a high turnover or this is what you are going to get, regardless of who's managing the team.

And that is what happened in Boston.   They traded all of those big money guys in July 2012, then eventually replaced Valentine with a former rock solid pitching coach in John Farrell, then saw Lackey and Buchholz get healthy.   The rest is history, especially with their pitching.   

 

Either get a new manager in here who used to be a rock solid pitching coach and knows more about the game overall than Marcel Lacheman did (return of Bud Black, as manager?), or at least get a really good pitching coach in here to replace Butcher.

[Inside Pitch]

 

 

Also, Francona is doing a much better job than Scioscia is.

 

 

 

Speaking of the Indians..   Word is they are releasing Mark Reynolds..  Meanwhile in Angel-land, his clone is seen an invaluable part of the team's future.  

 

Bad glove, no OBP skills, but he hits bombs.