Speculate on this organizations dysfunction.

[BTH]

8 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Most of those are issues that a lot of other teams had, too. Including teams with good farm systems.
 

Also, all of that stuff happened after the farm system was already crap. None of that has anything to with Jo Adell, Brandon Marsh, Jordyn Adams, Matt Thaiss, Griffin Canning, etc having failed to succeed for any extended periods in the majors. 
 

It’s like blaming the chefs who skimped on the food for the Titanic sinking. 

I just think it shows a lack of commitment to player development. If you really cared about having a productive farm system and organization, you wouldn’t cut corners— even at a time when other orgs were. If anything, that’d be a time to go above and beyond and try to separate yourself from other orgs that were cutting corners.

Arte is the owner, the single most influential person in the organization. So when the organization is struggling, it seems like the blame should fall on him. Cause he clearly is more than just a “chef who skimped on the food for the Titanic sinking.”

[Jeff Fletcher]

9 minutes ago, Trendon said:

I just think it shows a lack of commitment to player development. If you really cared about having a productive farm system and organization, you wouldn’t cut corners— even at a time when other orgs were. If anything, that’d be a time to go above and beyond and try to separate yourself from other orgs that were cutting corners.

Arte is the owner, the single most influential person in the organization. So when the organization is struggling, it seems like the blame should fall on him. Cause he clearly is more than just a “chef who skimped on the food for the Titanic sinking.”

I get that all those little things are easy to jump on if you’re looking for reasons to blame the owner. 
 

I personally believe the issue is that they have not drafted well enough and they have not developed well enough.

Not that the minor leaguers didn’t get nice enough beds. 

[BTH]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I get that all those little things are easy to jump on if you’re looking for reasons to blame the owner. 
 

I personally believe the issue is that they have not drafted well enough and they have not developed well enough.

Not that the minor leaguers didn’t get nice enough beds. 

So you don’t think that the poor living conditions minor leaguers deal with has any correlation to the Angels development issues?

[Jeff Fletcher]

10 minutes ago, Trendon said:

So you don’t think that the poor living conditions minor leaguers deal with has any correlation to the Angels development issues?

Nope. I think all teams’ minor leaguers live under essentially the same conditions. 
 

Also, the guys picked in the top 5 rounds all get $200k or more when they’re drafted. Those guys can afford food and apartments and they still aren’t turning into good major leaguers. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Jeff Fletcher

[UndertheHalo]

33 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I get that all those little things are easy to jump on if you’re looking for reasons to blame the owner. 
 

I personally believe the issue is that they have not drafted well enough and they have not developed well enough.

Not that the minor leaguers didn’t get nice enough beds. 

What do you think is up with the Angels sort of old school vertical management structure ? Seems like most of the good teams are using the baseball VP operations thing with multiple GM’s.  Angels still using what seems like an older model.  1 GM.  Etc. 

[Docwaukee]

49 minutes ago, Trendon said:

I just think it shows a lack of commitment to player development. If you really cared about having a productive farm system and organization, you wouldn’t cut corners— even at a time when other orgs were. If anything, that’d be a time to go above and beyond and try to separate yourself from other orgs that were cutting corners.

Arte is the owner, the single most influential person in the organization. So when the organization is struggling, it seems like the blame should fall on him. Cause he clearly is more than just a “chef who skimped on the food for the Titanic sinking.”

I would like to say that I agree with you.  But also that it probably wouldn't amount to jack squat.  I'd like to thin that additional support for guys who come over from the DR or that for the 15th round pick that can't afford creature comforts would result in that 1-2 extra guys per year that could excel because of that.  But would it?  They're probably right that it doesn't matter and they can keep treating their people the same even though it's the most humane thing to do or even forward thinking.  But at the end of the day, they're probably correct in assuming it doesn't really matter.  

I would prefer they spend the extra money to find out, but clearly they're not convinced.  

[Lou]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Nope. I think all teams’ minor leaguers live under essentially the same conditions. 
 

Also, the guys picked in the top 5 rounds all get $200k or more when they’re drafted. Those guys can afford food and apartments and they still aren’t turning into good major leaguers. 

Thank you.

[Lou]

I love Fletch.

[WicketMaiden]

4 hours ago, Trendon said:

That's the "simple" surface answer, but I feel like you need to dig deeper below the surface:

*Why* did the farm system become terrible?

*Why* did Josh Hamilton's contract blow up?

*Why* were they unwilling to give out more big FA deals?

Josh Hamilton's contract blew up Josh Hamilton's nose, don't think we can blame Arte for that one.

[full circle]

1 hour ago, WicketMaiden said:

Josh Hamilton's contract blew up Josh Hamilton's nose, don't think we can blame Arte for that one.

Uhh really?  We can’t blame the owner for signing a known crackhead when that same crackhead smokes crack?  Ok

[full circle]

4 hours ago, Trendon said:

So you don’t think that the poor living conditions minor leaguers deal with has any correlation to the Angels development issues?

This isn’t the strongest argument.  It’s much more about who they’re drafting than it is about how those draftees are living.  

[full circle]

4 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I get that all those little things are easy to jump on if you’re looking for reasons to blame the owner. 
 

I personally believe the issue is that they have not drafted well enough and they have not developed well enough.

Not that the minor leaguers didn’t get nice enough beds. 

Not drafting and developing well enough can also be blamed on the owner, if you’re looking to blame the owner.  You clearly do NOT want to put any blame on the owner.  
 

Artes own behavior changes show he knows fans don’t like him due to the decisions he’s made.  

[Jeff Fletcher]

6 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

What do you think is up with the Angels sort of old school vertical management structure ? Seems like most of the good teams are using the baseball VP operations thing with multiple GM’s.  Angels still using what seems like an older model.  1 GM.  Etc. 

Their jobs are the same. Andrew Friedman has the same job as Perry Minasian. The only difference is Friedman has a higher title because he was a GM with the Rays and the Dodgers had to give him a bigger title so they could hire him away. The Angels have not hired away other GMs.

If you want to criticize Arte, you can criticize him for not hiring experienced GMs.

He also led the decisions to sign Pujols, Hamilton, Rendon. He fired Ausmus and hired Maddon. He fired Eppler. He killed the Pederson-Stripling deal. He sets the payroll. 
 

I think it’s a stretch to blame him for Jo Adell not developing. 

[Angelsfan1984]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Their jobs are the same. Andrew Friedman has the same job as Perry Minasian. The only difference is Friedman has a higher title because he was a GM with the Rays and the Dodgers had to give him a bigger title so they could hire him away. The Angels have not hired away other GMs.

If you want to criticize Arte, you can criticize him for not hiring experienced GMs.

He also led the decisions to sign Pujols, Hamilton, Rendon. He fired Ausmus and hired Maddon. He fired Eppler. He killed the Pederson-Stripling deal. He sets the payroll. 
 

I think it’s a stretch to blame him for Jo Adell not developing. 

But but but…bad living conditions. Clearly it effected his eyesight. 

[UndertheHalo]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Their jobs are the same. Andrew Friedman has the same job as Perry Minasian. The only difference is Friedman has a higher title because he was a GM with the Rays and the Dodgers had to give him a bigger title so they could hire him away. The Angels have not hired away other GMs.

If you want to criticize Arte, you can criticize him for not hiring experienced GMs.

He also led the decisions to sign Pujols, Hamilton, Rendon. He fired Ausmus and hired Maddon. He fired Eppler. He killed the Pederson-Stripling deal. He sets the payroll. 
 

I think it’s a stretch to blame him for Jo Adell not developing. 

I’m not blaming Arte for that exactly.  But I’m led to be believe that what the dodgers do organizationally is different then just loftier titles.  It seems to me that they have more executives that manage smaller sections of the club.  It’s a more horizontal organizational structure.  Is that wrong ?

Edited August 2, 2022 by UndertheHalo

[Jeff Fletcher]

5 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I’m blaming Arte for that exactly.  But I’m led to be believe that what the dodgers do organizationally is different then just loftier titles.  It seems to me that they have more executives that manage smaller sections of the club.  It’s a more horizontal organizational structure.  Is that wrong ?

That’s news to me. 

[Angels 1961]

6 hours ago, WicketMaiden said:

Josh Hamilton's contract blew up Josh Hamilton's nose, don't think we can blame Arte for that one.

Nobody was offering Hamilton that kind of money, except Arte

[UndertheHalo]

23 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

That’s news to me. 

much to consider 

 

also correction on the previous post. *not blaming Arte.  

Edited August 2, 2022 by UndertheHalo

[Taylor]

11 hours ago, HanfordGuy said:

Dysfunction Junction 

what’s your function???

Signing bad contracts with no trade clauses

[Angels 1961]

9 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I get that all those little things are easy to jump on if you’re looking for reasons to blame the owner. 
 

I personally believe the issue is that they have not drafted well enough and they have not developed well enough.

Not that the minor leaguers didn’t get nice enough beds. 

Another question, Minasian only in 2nd year as GM. Do you feel he is at disadvantage dealing against other GM's? Some that have been on job longer. AJ Prellar and others that more aggressive. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

26 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Another question, Minasian only in 2nd year as GM. Do you feel he is at disadvantage dealing against other GM's? Some that have been on job longer. AJ Prellar and others that more aggressive. 

I think AJ Preller is aggressive because he's got the prospects to be aggressive. I don't think we know how aggressive Minasian would be if he had something to trade.

[PattyD22]

5 hours ago, full circle said:

Uhh really?  We can’t blame the owner for signing a known crackhead when that same crackhead smokes crack?  Ok

 

5 hours ago, full circle said:

Not drafting and developing well enough can also be blamed on the owner, if you’re looking to blame the owner.  You clearly do NOT want to put any blame on the owner.  
 

Based on these posts, your screen name  is spot on.

[WicketMaiden]

3 hours ago, Angels 1961 said:

Nobody was offering Hamilton that kind of money, except Arte

Numpty. Unless you're Hamilton's agent, you absolutely do not know that. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

38 minutes ago, WicketMaiden said:

Numpty. Unless you're Hamilton's agent, you absolutely do not know that. 

Beat me to it.

I went on record here at the time saying I didn't like the deal, when most did. (Pujols+hamilton+Trout should have been pretty insane, in fairness. Then add trumbo, howie/akbar still here, iannetta, etc).

But even with my not so fizzy feelings about it, pre Angels Hamulton was a monster hitter, and had been for some time. Maybe we were stupid to pay him that, I have no idea. But I'm pretty confidant he was going to get a monster deal no matter where he went.

 

[PattyD22]

42 minutes ago, WicketMaiden said:

Numpty. 

I swear I want to put this term in heavy rotation as part of my every day vocabulary.  Except I forget it.