Heyman: Angels have decided to keep Shohei Ohtani

[T.G.]

4 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

He's about to become an AW mod, actually.

@Blarg is going to love this.

[Dtwncbad]

People are going to pile on Arte for this because people always pile on Arte.

And maybe he has earned that, but it doesn’t make every pile on legitimate.

Ohtani is fucking special.  Like historically an icon at this point.

No owner wants to be the guy that trading him away instead of trying their best to keep him and win with him.

If the Angels suck next year and can’t lock up Ohtani and he walks in free agency, then you simply have to live with that.  It’s not what you want to happen but at least you can look yourself in the mirror that you didn’t end up being the owner that punted and handed over an icon to another team.

Personally I think the Angel brand is damaged more if they traded him now instead of trying to win with him risking him leaving.

If Ohtani ends up walking, then the final score is he wanted to be elsewhere.

Yes, the subtext would be the team failed to put a better team around him to make him want to stay, but you gotta go down swinging.

I hope Arte sees it this way so that he takes a deep breath and opens up the checkbook to bring in about 3 impact players.

I absolutely don’t want to tap out right now and take a few prospects, even a stellar group of like 4 prospects.  The reality is it is really really unlikely that even a stellar group of prospects will ultimately be judged as a win for the Angels.  Maybe two are really good, one is OK and one is a bust.

What is the net gain there when Ohtani is two excellent players already by himself, other than some years of control? Not much.

In the end, no owner wants to be the douche that traded an icon to pick up a couple of years of control on a couple of players that likely don’t deliver more overall than Ohtani.

You keep the icon and overcommit to 2023 putting your best foot forward.

 

[BTH]

I’m fine with keeping Ohtani and not extending him IF Arte Moreno is planning to spend like never before in an all-out effort to improve the team in hopes of keeping Ohtani.

But, I’d be foolish to expect that. Honestly that scenario feels like a pipe dream, with the way this franchise has been ran.

It’ll be same old, same old: some tinkering around the roster, a similar payroll with maybe a 5% increase, and relying on a whole bunch of “ifs.” Oh, and a new manager/coaching staff (the former of whom will probably be influenced by Arte)

[Hubs]

I've made this point a few times, dating back to the Trout trade possibilities.

A team who gives up a superstar, hardly ever gets better, and almost never gets good value.

Griffey to the Reds. Solid depth pieces.

A-Rod to the Yankees. Soriano solid piece, not great.

Cabrera to the Tigers. Not one player was good for Marlins.

Stanton to the Yankees. Castro solid piece, prospects struggled.

Machado to the Dodgers. No one has been good. One minor leaguer is doing ok.

Betts to the Dodgers. Verdugo solid piece, Jeter Downs and Connor Wong struggle in AAA. 

 

Pitcher deals tend to be better for the team that acquires the prospects than position player trades, but we don't know if that will work out either. 

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/juan-soto-trade-rumors-mlb-nationals-blockbuster/qjn5cirbgmh02xfyj3jphuzp

[DMVol]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

I've made this point a few times, dating back to the Trout trade possibilities.

A team who gives up a superstar, hardly ever gets better, and almost never gets good value.

Griffey to the Reds. Solid depth pieces.

A-Rod to the Yankees. Soriano solid piece, not great.

Cabrera to the Tigers. Not one player was good for Marlins.

Stanton to the Yankees. Castro solid piece, prospects struggled.

Machado to the Dodgers. No one has been good. One minor leaguer is doing ok.

Betts to the Dodgers. Verdugo solid piece, Jeter Downs and Connor Wong struggle in AAA. 

 

Pitcher deals tend to be better for the team that acquires the prospects than position player trades, but we don't know if that will work out either. 

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/juan-soto-trade-rumors-mlb-nationals-blockbuster/qjn5cirbgmh02xfyj3jphuzp

Point taken.....but if you aren't going to re-sign the player and you're not a serious playoff contender, what purpose does it serve to keep the player and get one compensatory draft pick in return?...

[ScottM]

5 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I've made this point a few times, dating back to the Trout trade possibilities.

A team who gives up a superstar, hardly ever gets better, and almost never gets good value.

Griffey to the Reds. Solid depth pieces.

A-Rod to the Yankees. Soriano solid piece, not great.

Cabrera to the Tigers. Not one player was good for Marlins.

Stanton to the Yankees. Castro solid piece, prospects struggled.

Machado to the Dodgers. No one has been good. One minor leaguer is doing ok.

Betts to the Dodgers. Verdugo solid piece, Jeter Downs and Connor Wong struggle in AAA. 

 

Pitcher deals tend to be better for the team that acquires the prospects than position player trades, but we don't know if that will work out either. 

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/juan-soto-trade-rumors-mlb-nationals-blockbuster/qjn5cirbgmh02xfyj3jphuzp

Greinke to the Angels for Jean Segura. Segura is just... oh wait he's had a great career 

[Hubs]

Just now, ScottSted said:

Greinke to the Angels for Jean Segura. Segura is just... oh wait he's had a great career 

I said pitchers tend to work out better than position players. Segura though was never a star and was moved from the Brewers relatively early on.

2 minutes ago, DMVol said:

Point taken.....but if you aren't going to re-sign the player and you're not a serious playoff contender, what purpose does it serve to keep the player and get one compensatory draft pick in return?...

I'm too lazy but I bet the times a team has gotten a pick for a player leaving has worked out better. If only for the pick we got for Texiera was Mike Trout.

[mmc]

10 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

People are going to pile on Arte for this because people always pile on Arte.

And maybe he has earned that, but it doesn’t make every pile on legitimate.

Ohtani is fucking special.  Like historically an icon at this point.

No owner wants to be the guy that trading him away instead of trying their best to keep him and win with him.

If the Angels suck next year and can’t lock up Ohtani and he walks in free agency, then you simply have to live with that.  It’s not what you want to happen but at least you can look yourself in the mirror that you didn’t end up being the owner that punted and handed over an icon to another team.

Personally I think the Angel brand is damaged more if they traded him now instead of trying to win with him risking him leaving.

If Ohtani ends up walking, then the final score is he wanted to be elsewhere.

Yes, the subtext would be the team failed to put a better team around him to make him want to stay, but you gotta go down swinging.

I hope Arte sees it this way so that he takes a deep breath and opens up the checkbook to bring in about 3 impact players.

I absolutely don’t want to tap out right now and take a few prospects, even a stellar group of like 4 prospects.  The reality is it is really really unlikely that even a stellar group of prospects will ultimately be judged as a win for the Angels.  Maybe two are really good, one is OK and one is a bust.

What is the net gain there when Ohtani is two excellent players already by himself, other than some years of control? Not much.

In the end, no owner wants to be the douche that traded an icon to pick up a couple of years of control on a couple of players that likely don’t deliver more overall than Ohtani.

You keep the icon and overcommit to 2023 putting your best foot forward.

 

The problem with this take, and similar posts is that it assumes that the alternative is that we will go all in on 2023, when there's no reason to believe that that will be the case

[Reveille1984]

This is obviously all noise at this point and who knows what will end up happening.  I just don't understand how we're going to "buy as soon as now" with what we have going on in our system.  We don't have the prospect capital to acquire anyone of substance, and Moreno has never shown the propensity to spend to/over the cap.

Like some others have iterated, if we keep and extend Ohtani then Arte better be willing to exponentially increase payroll because it's just a recipe for franchise purgatory with Rendon/Trout/Ohtani sucking up over half of our payroll.  Especially with Rendon and Trout's health issues already.

 

[Angels 1961]

It's not giving up a superstar. If he wants to test FA then you get what you can. Can you afford him and put winner on the field? Where is your team at, is it close to contenting? Many factors go into trading any superstar, I hope if he is an Angel in 2023 they can have a winning team. So much work to do. 

 

 

 

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, mmc said:

The problem with this take, and similar posts is that it assumes that the alternative is that we will go all in on 2023, when there's no reason to believe that that will be the case

The problem with this take is that we don't have any control over what will happen... in the meantime, you can believe whatever you want.  There are no absolutes. 

[ettin]

Someone may have mentioned this already, but I wonder if, what may have looked, initially, like a career-ending type of injury to Mike Trout, led to shopping Ohtani around in the first place?

One may have nothing to do with the other. Personally, I still think the Angels should do everything in their power to extend Ohtani, but that is a big commitment of money and if they thought their other elite blue-chip player might be out of the remainder of his career, it could have led to a discussion of a reboot versus going further all-in on 2023 and beyond.

[Angel Oracle]

16 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

People are going to pile on Arte for this because people always pile on Arte.

And maybe he has earned that, but it doesn’t make every pile on legitimate.

Ohtani is fucking special.  Like historically an icon at this point.

No owner wants to be the guy that trading him away instead of trying their best to keep him and win with him.

If the Angels suck next year and can’t lock up Ohtani and he walks in free agency, then you simply have to live with that.  It’s not what you want to happen but at least you can look yourself in the mirror that you didn’t end up being the owner that punted and handed over an icon to another team.

Personally I think the Angel brand is damaged more if they traded him now instead of trying to win with him risking him leaving.

If Ohtani ends up walking, then the final score is he wanted to be elsewhere.

Yes, the subtext would be the team failed to put a better team around him to make him want to stay, but you gotta go down swinging.

I hope Arte sees it this way so that he takes a deep breath and opens up the checkbook to bring in about 3 impact players.

I absolutely don’t want to tap out right now and take a few prospects, even a stellar group of like 4 prospects.  The reality is it is really really unlikely that even a stellar group of prospects will ultimately be judged as a win for the Angels.  Maybe two are really good, one is OK and one is a bust.

What is the net gain there when Ohtani is two excellent players already by himself, other than some years of control? Not much.

In the end, no owner wants to be the douche that traded an icon to pick up a couple of years of control on a couple of players that likely don’t deliver more overall than Ohtani.

You keep the icon and overcommit to 2023 putting your best foot forward.

 

That’s fine and all.

How many big money FA signings have worked out for the Halos?

At some point, it has to be understood that Moreno doesn’t understand the right time to sign them.   It can’t always be when they are already entering their 30s.  How many players maintain excellent play into their mid 30s nowadays?

[eligrba]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

The time to not be okay with it will be next Spring if they ignore everything they need to do..  AGAIN....

I'm not sure "they" ignored the needs of the club last off season.  Minasian simply miscalculated in all areas of need.

[eligrba]

32 minutes ago, Trendon said:

Ohtani has said nothing to make one think he’s gonna sign an extension with the Angel

Why would Ohtani's agent let Ohtani publicly say such a thing? 

[eligrba]

Funny how this is news.

[ten ocho recon scout]

The one good thing in all this is that we'll get to see the team try everything possible to lock him up next year.

Which I can see being replacing the dumb cowboy home run hat with the Vietnamese hat Percy used to wear to spring training, and it totally backfiring because that would mean nothing to Ohtani, but we have no idea what kind of hats people wear in Japan.

[Inside Pitch]

3 minutes ago, eligrba said:

Funny how this is news.

It isn't but it will get clicks from people who will just repeat the "wasting his career" stuff.  Heyman knows his audience.

[Jay]

47 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

He's about to become an AW mod

So he has to complete some training or...?

[Jay]

1 hour ago, cals said:

His value is massive now.  It goes down roughly 33% this offseason and another 33% the next deadline. 

I'm assuming GMSs look at the amount of games they will get from him and the value will correspond to the amount of games.

The GMs of good teams are considering how many postseasons they will get from him.

 

[Jason]

1 hour ago, cals said:

The only thing that makes this the right decision is if Moreno opens the checkbook now.

Letting him walk or letting him and Trout wallow amongst mediocrity for the next decade are not acceptable options.

Frankly I think he is re-signed and then the Angels will still suck. 

So you don't want a repeat of the first decade of his career?

[ten ocho recon scout]

40 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I've made this point a few times, dating back to the Trout trade possibilities.

A team who gives up a superstar, hardly ever gets better, and almost never gets good value.

Griffey to the Reds. Solid depth pieces.

A-Rod to the Yankees. Soriano solid piece, not great.

Cabrera to the Tigers. Not one player was good for Marlins.

Stanton to the Yankees. Castro solid piece, prospects struggled.

Machado to the Dodgers. No one has been good. One minor leaguer is doing ok.

Betts to the Dodgers. Verdugo solid piece, Jeter Downs and Connor Wong struggle in AAA. 

 

Pitcher deals tend to be better for the team that acquires the prospects than position player trades, but we don't know if that will work out either. 

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/juan-soto-trade-rumors-mlb-nationals-blockbuster/qjn5cirbgmh02xfyj3jphuzp

I think that's absolutely true. But I think you also have to consider costs. If said superstar costs you 30-40 a year, and you suck everywhere else, versus getting back non superstars that fill more needs and leaves money to spend somewhere else, there's value there.

Superstars I think at this point in sports make sense for great teams, but not a lot for merely decent ones. The only time it helps the little guy is when they're still young and cheap, and have a few other young and cheap stars that come up with them.

At the end of the day, peak Trout is worth the money... but not to our shifty team. Because no matter how good he is, the money isn't getting any more wins, really. Or at least moving the team past Houston (in our case)

[cals]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

So you don't want a repeat of the first decade of his career?

Ideally, no.

[Erstad Grit]

40 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I've made this point a few times, dating back to the Trout trade possibilities.

A team who gives up a superstar, hardly ever gets better, and almost never gets good value.

Griffey to the Reds. Solid depth pieces.

A-Rod to the Yankees. Soriano solid piece, not great.

Cabrera to the Tigers. Not one player was good for Marlins.

Stanton to the Yankees. Castro solid piece, prospects struggled.

Machado to the Dodgers. No one has been good. One minor leaguer is doing ok.

Betts to the Dodgers. Verdugo solid piece, Jeter Downs and Connor Wong struggle in AAA. 

 

Pitcher deals tend to be better for the team that acquires the prospects than position player trades, but we don't know if that will work out either. 

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/juan-soto-trade-rumors-mlb-nationals-blockbuster/qjn5cirbgmh02xfyj3jphuzp

Soriano almost had a 40/40 on the Rangers.  Your overal point is valid but I don't think Soriano is a good example.  Also some of those like Arod and Stanton the team trading the superstar is wanting to get rid of huge contract.  That would be more like trading Trout for nothing. 

[cals]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

The GMs of good teams are considering how many postseasons they will get from him.

 

And everyone but the Yankees probably care about how he’s going to help them get to the playoffs in the first place.