Maybe....

[Slegnaac]

5 hours ago, cals said:

So just so I understand, you guys think there is some magic manager out there that will make shitty players good?

I think the objection to Maddon is that given the choices of players he could put in the game, he is making the wrong choices.

#1. Cishek when runners are on base.

#2. Quintana in any situation.

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I’ve explained multiple times why I think the criticism of the manager is misguided and I don’t appear to be making a dent in people’s desire to do it, so I’m giving up. 
 

Trash him all you want. 

I just wanna kick him in the nuts...

[Stradling]

It’s pretty rich reading Mariners fans on Twitter talking about us wasting Trout and Ohtani’s career.  They must have forgot about Griffey, Arod and RJ. 

[Lou]

13 minutes ago, Stradling said:

It’s pretty rich reading Mariners fans on Twitter talking about us wasting Trout and Ohtani’s career.  They must have forgot about Griffey, Arod and RJ. 

They've wasted the careers of every single guy who has ever played for their organization.

[Inside Pitch]

20 minutes ago, Stradling said:

It’s pretty rich reading Mariners fans on Twitter talking about us wasting Trout and Ohtani’s career.  They must have forgot about Griffey, Arod and RJ. 

I saw some of that, it's pretty much par for the course.

Griffey, ARod, RJ, Edgar, four HOFers on the roster at the same time, plus Buhner and Moyer.    King Felix, Suzuki....   Also at the same time.

No franchise in MLB has less room to talk shit about wasting careers...    

[Angelsjunky]

Elements of a team, in order of importance:

Hitting

Starting pitching

Defense

Relief pitching

Luck

...huge gap...

Managerial decisions

 

Yeah, its all Maddon's fault.

 

[tdawg87]

43 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Elements of a team, in order of importance:

Hitting

Starting pitching

Defense

Relief pitching

Luck

...huge gap...

Managerial decisions

 

Yeah, its all Maddon's fault.

 

It's not all Maddon's fault. 

But you don't think his decisions have made a significant impact on the team this year?

We've seen it happen in real time.

I'm not saying this is the norm. Scioscia's impact was minimal at best. But this is different.

[HeavenlyHalos]

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

It’s pretty rich reading Mariners fans on Twitter talking about us wasting Trout and Ohtani’s career.  They must have forgot about Griffey, Arod and RJ. 

Agreed but they aren't wrong. Still time to turn it around though which I think they will if a few of these prospects pan out and those two stay healthy in the same season.

Need to invest heavily in the bullpen this offseason as that has the least internal talent.

[Stradling]

26 minutes ago, HeavenlyHalos said:

Agreed but they aren't wrong. Still time to turn it around though which I think they will if a few of these prospects pan out and those two stay healthy in the same season.

Need to invest heavily in the bullpen this offseason as that has the least internal talent.

They are wrong including Ohtani.  He’s in the middle of his first monster year. 

[Tank]

9 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I saw some of that, it's pretty much par for the course.

Griffey, ARod, RJ, Edgar, four HOFers on the roster at the same time, plus Buhner and Moyer.    King Felix, Suzuki....   Also at the same time.

No franchise in MLB has less room to talk shit about wasting careers...    

caterbaby . . .

plus you forgot about David Segui.

[Docwaukee]

Criticism of a manager as culpable for a team not winning is generally unfounded for most teams unless they've somehow create a highly negative and volatile culture in the clubhosue.  Typically, they just don't influence the actual games on a day to day to a significant degree.  

But is that the case for the Halos?

Who runs the show for the Angels?  I ask that in earnest because honestly, I don't know.  

I have a guess though as the Angels situation seems unconventional.  I don't think Arte lures his good friend to the table unless he gives him a fair amount of power.  More than most managers have.  We all want a normal hierarchy but I just don't buy that it is.  The Angels tried that for a whole year with Eppler and Ausmus and it failed miserably so Arte brought in his guy at manager and another first time GM who's gonna cosign whatever BS happens between Arte and his guy.  I'm glad JD is gone but he left for the very same reason.  The Angels don't have a normal org structure.  Again, this is an opinion and not a fact. 

I think Maddon has been empowered to use as much or little of his creativity as he wants.  In many different areas of this franchise.  It seems his true value is in the club house and bringing a team together.  And he's clearly had some success doing that in the past and it seems like he's done a good job of that with the halos.  And if that were the only major influence then great. 

But I kinda feel like Maddon views himself as an artist.  That each and every game is some sort of blank canvas where he's got on his smock and he's trying to paint a masterpiece.  And each game is it's own.  Whereas someone like MS was a builder.  Where each game was a stepping stone to the final product.  

I have no idea if the team would be better or worse without Maddon as manager.  If his ability to do what he does from a leadership standpoint offsets the in game moves that seem questionable not just by a rabid fan but by a slew of analytics that show how teams win with the game in it's current state.  We all know he longs for the good ol' days.  So I guess he's a retro hipster artist.  

Also, and this is complete and totally my own (probably bullshit) view but I think there's some ego involved.  Friedman got a lot of the credit for being the mastermind in Tampa and Eppstein in Chicago.  I wonder if Joe is looking to get a similar sort of designation by sculpting and crafting and whittling and honing and coloring the Angels into that work of art where everyone thinks that he was the main guy who did it.  He wants to proudly hand off his masterpiece to Arte and have him hang it on the wall.  And I think Arte wants that as well.  

But at the end of the day, I think Maddon was at his best when guys like Friedman and Eppstein focused and corralled him into doing the things he was best at.  And those relationships started to fall apart a bit when Joe seemed to go outside of that.  Genius, creative Joe is great for the clubhouse.  Genius, creative Joe on the field is a different story for me.  But are the Angels set up to harness his value and take advantage of where he does have a positive impact on the game while controlling and influencing the areas he doesn't?  

I don't get that sense and as a result the team will never be as good as it could be if Joe were to have the proper handler.  

[ScottT]

Does anyone actually think Joe Maddon is a genius?

[Stradling]

Just now, ScottT said:

Does anyone actually think Joe Maddon is a genius?

There were many, like a lot, of fans who truly believed he was the reason we won in 2002. 

[ScottT]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

There were many, like a lot, of fans who truly believed he was the reason we won in 2002. 

There are people that think the earth is flat.

Also... I don't think it was a lot.

[Angels 1961]

On 7/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, Jeff Fletcher said:

I’ve explained multiple times why I think the criticism of the manager is misguided and I don’t appear to be making a dent in people’s desire to do it, so I’m giving up. 
 

Trash him all you want. 

I like Maddon pieces in pen given to him have not worked. Trout and Rendon injuries have also hurt. Maddon has released the beast in Ohtani letting him play everyday.

[Angels 1961]

53 minutes ago, ScottT said:

Does anyone actually think Joe Maddon is a genius?

I do not think any manager in baseball history was a genius. 

[Docwaukee]

22 minutes ago, cals said:

I had to mark a spot on my calendar later today to read this.  I don’t have 45 free minutes now.

I'll be waiting with baited breath.  

[jsnpritchett]

10 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I'll be waiting with baited breath.  

*bated.