What should happen with Andrelton Simmons?

[Angelsjunky]

What do you think should happen (vote), and will happen (discuss)?

I'm voting QO, 1-2 year contract offer. What I think will happen is QO, no contract offer.

I'm fine going with Fletcher and Barreto/Rengifo in some form or fashion, with a hopefully maturing Jahmai Jones in AAA and maybe a cheap journeyman UT signed as insurance. But I also think the team is better with Simmons and don't think we should take his defense for granted. I'm also reasonably optimistic he'll hit closer to 2017-18 than previous years.

[Chuck]

Goodbye because if he accepts the qualifying offer that could be 18 million dollars less that we have to spend on starting pitching. 

That and Fletcher is a really good SS. Is he Simmons good? Maybe not but he's awful close. I've loved everything I've seen from Fletcher at SS defensively. 

If Simmons was hitting double digit home runs like his early days with Atlanta I'd probably do it, but his bat has regressed a bit. His at bats are painful to watch at times.

[totdprods]

Too early to tell. Let’s see how Rengifo and Barreto do.

[Angels in 2030]

He's not getting close to $18M/yr.....certainly not over 3+ years.  Injuries + the CV financial impact + lack of SS market will all limit his opportunities this FA off-season.  If you QO him, he's very likely to take it.  And we simply can afford to use up $18M of salary space next year on Simmons at SS.  That's bad salary management for a team that is going to be limited payroll flexibility wise.

[Docwaukee]

I would have preferred to trade him and get something.  anything in return.  

Resign him on the cheap as his value has decreased substantially over the last two years.  mostly due to injury.  

He was a 3-4 WAR player and now you can't bank on that.  I know this doesn't seem fair because he was so good before, but I'm at 3/21 for him right now.  I think he's worth a bit more but also because there aren't many teams out there in need of a defense only SS no matter how good he is.  Plus there are other available players who are better.  

There is no way in hell I give him a QO for 18m.  

[Angelsjunky]

OK, I'm starting to be convinced that offering him a QO isn't a good idea. Maybe if Pujols and Upton weren't on the books.

As for whether the Angels offer him one, who knows. They might risk it in the hopes that he doesn't agree and they get the pick, but he'd be a fool not to agree and try to rebuild his value for a larger contract in 2022.

[Blarg]

Fletcher is in no way close to Simmons defense at SS. And Simmons would still be better defensively three seasons from now than Fletcher. 

The real question is Rengifo's value moving forward as to whether Simmons is offered a contract, not Fletcher's defense. Because if Rengifo can provide either SS or 2nd base coverage along with a reasonable enough replication of his AAA performance at the MLB level with the bat then Simmons defense only value is offset. Jones and Barreto are cost controlled infield depth which leaves all cash savings for pitching. 

The real linchpin is Rengifo. If he can't step up the extending Simmons will be necessary. 

[hangin n wangin]

17 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Goodbye because if he accepts the qualifying offer that could be 18 million dollars less that we have to spend on starting pitching. 

That and Fletcher is a really good SS. Is he Simmons good? Maybe not but he's awful close. I've loved everything I've seen from Fletcher at SS defensively. 

If Simmons was hitting double digit home runs like his early days with Atlanta I'd probably do it, but his bat has regressed a bit. His at bats are painful to watch at times.

I don't necessarily disagree with your main point but even though Fletcher is good defensively, he is not close to Simmons. Simmons is pretty much a GOAT shortstop defensively. Not many players are close. Not saying Fletcher isn't really good defensively, but Simmons is on another level. 

But again, I agree with your main point. That's 18 million dollars less that can go to pitching. 

[Stradling]

I agree with a lot that has been said here.  My opinion is this, if you can get him for 3 years and under $30 million you bring him back.  I know it is money that can be spent on pitching, but as @Inside Pitch has pointed out our biggest problem this year has been defense even more so than pitching.  I also look at a team like the Rays and they are a pitching and DEFENSE team first.  So since we have zero chance of having an elite defensive outfield, with Trout, Upton and Adell then we might as well work towards cutting down the runs on the infield.  The only way they can get a really strong defensive outfield is to bring up Marsh, play him in RF and trade Adell, then we will be a pretty good defensive outfield.  Sadly this isn’t a normal season where after the trade deadline we would still have two months worth of at bats to figure out what Barreto or Rengifo are.  We have 24 games, which really is only going to show us whether or not a player can get hot for a few weeks.  

[Claude]

Let him walk and take Didi Gregorious who’s the same age, decent defensively and has much better pop in his left handed bat. Oh and I love his career splits in Anaheim.

Didi for 2 / $24M at short and put Fletcher at 2B.

 

[Stradling]

I agree with everyone pointing out the difference defensively between Fletcher and Simmons.  Fletcher will make all the routine plays and the occasional excellent play.  But those excellent plays he makes are plays that Simmons makes and makes them look easy.  Then factor in that Simmons makes more plays as well.  Not to mention the play he made in the 9th inning against Seattle where he secured the win basically.  So Adell gets the ball in “quickly” (nothing he does defensively has been quickly yet) and Simmons doesn’t even look, just whirls and throws the dude out trying to go 1st to 3rd.  No one else in the game today makes that play.  

[Claude]

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I agree with a lot that has been said here.  My opinion is this, if you can get him for 3 years and under $30 million you bring him back.  I know it is money that can be spent on pitching, but as @Inside Pitch has pointed out our biggest problem this year has been defense even more so than pitching.  I also look at a team like the Rays and they are a pitching and DEFENSE team first.  So since we have zero chance of having an elite defensive outfield, with Trout, Upton and Adell then we might as well work towards cutting down the runs on the infield.  The only way they can get a really strong defensive outfield is to bring up Marsh, play him in RF and trade Adell, then we will be a pretty good defensive outfield.  Sadly this isn’t a normal season where after the trade deadline we would still have two months worth of at bats to figure out what Barreto or Rengifo are.  We have 24 games, which really is only going to show us whether or not a player can get hot for a few weeks.  

Strad my concern for Simmons is his durability. Sure he’s an elite shortstop but his plate discipline has dropped off. He doesn’t have much power either.  

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, RendZone said:

Strad my concern for Simmons is his durability. Sure he’s an elite shortstop but his plate discipline has dropped off. He doesn’t have much power either.  

I get what you are saying, but I think you are over valuing his defense.  Unless I am reading it incorrectly he was a negative 17 defensive runs saved.  Simmons was positive 16, so we would be 33 runs worse defensively.  As IP pointed out the bigger problem is defense even more than pitching.  

[Angelsjunky]

5 minutes ago, RendZone said:

Strad my concern for Simmons is his durability. Sure he’s an elite shortstop but his plate discipline has dropped off. He doesn’t have much power either.  

He has a 8.0 walk %, highest of his career. Small sample size, of course, but it is fun correcting you with facts.

[Chuck]

23 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Fletcher is in no way close to Simmons defense at SS. And Simmons would still be better defensively three seasons from now than Fletcher. 

The real question is Rengifo's value moving forward as to whether Simmons is offered a contract, not Fletcher's defense. Because if Rengifo can provide either SS or 2nd base coverage along with a reasonable enough replication of his AAA performance at the MLB level with the bat then Simmons defense only value is offset. Jones and Barreto are cost controlled infield depth which leaves all cash savings for pitching. 

The real linchpin is Rengifo. If he can't step up the extending Simmons will be necessary. 

Fletcher is pretty damn close to being Simmons defensively at SS. Have you watched any games this season, @Blarg? I know you've been working on production shit for TV, maybe you've missed out on some of Fletch's gems at SS. 

Point is, Simmons cannot stay healthy. He's not worth the $$$ it would take to sign him. 

Also, let Jones, Rengifo, Alcantra and Barreto battle it out for the starting 2B job. Whoever is best defensively and shows a decent bat, that guy gets the job! 

There's also some cheap 2B available as FA's next year. La Stella, Schoop, B. Miller and C. Hernandez (who everyone wanted to trade for 2-3 years ago). 

My focus is utilizing every bit of our $$$ on starting pitching. These guys should be our focus this offseason that aren't available for trade:

PLAYER (55)	POS.	AGE	TEAM	H	RBI	HR	AVG	OPS	IP	ERA	W	SV	2020 SALARY	MARKET VALUE (AAV)	2020 WAR
Jake Arrieta	SP	35	PHI						26.3	6.49	2		$20,000,000	-	1
Masahiro Tanaka	SP	32	NYY						26.7	3.38	1		$23,000,000	-	1
Jordan Zimmermann	SP	35	DET										$25,000,000	-
Jeff Samardzija	SP	36	SF						13.7	9.88	0		$19,800,000	-	1
Cole Hamels	SP	37	ATL										$18,000,000	-
Jake Odorizzi	SP	31	MIN						10	8.10	0		$17,800,000	$17,845,563	1
Trevor Bauer	SP	30	CIN						38	2.13	3		$17,500,000	-	1
Mike Leake	SP	33	ARI										$15,000,000	-
Tyler Chatwood	SP	31	CHC						18.7	5.30	2		$13,000,000	-	1
James Paxton	SP	32	NYY						20.3	6.64	1		$12,500,000	-	1
Marcus Stroman	SP	30	NYM										$12,000,000	-
Rick Porcello	SP	32	NYM						33	6.00	1		$10,000,000	-	1
Anibal Sanchez	SP	37	WSH						30	6.90	1		$12,000,000	-	1
Robbie Ray	SP	29	TOR						34.3	7.34	1		$9,430,000	-	1
Mike Minor	SP	33	OAK						35.3	5.60	0		$9,833,334	-	1
Kevin Gausman	SP	30	SF						40.7	4.43	2		$9,000,000	-	0.8
Julio Teheran	SP	30	LAA						17.7	9.17	0		$9,000,000	-	0.24
Garrett Richards	SP	33	SD						35	4.63	1		$8,500,000	-	1
Corey Kluber	SP	35	TEX						1		0		$18,000,000	-	1
Michael Fiers	SP	36	OAK						37	4.87	4		$8,100,000	-	1
Homer Bailey	SP	35	MIN						5	3.60	1		$7,000,000	-	1
Martin Perez	SP	30	BOS						35.3	4.59	2		$6,250,000	-	1
Anthony DeSclafani	SP	31	CIN						21	7.71	1		$5,900,000	-	1
Chase Anderson	SP	33	TOR						19.7	3.20	0		$9,500,000	-	1
Jose Quintana	SP	32	CHC						6	6.00	0		$10,500,000	-	0.89
Adam Wainwright	SP	39	STL						34	2.65	3		$5,000,000	-	1
Brett Anderson	SP	33	MIL						28	4.18	2		$5,000,000	-	1
Chris Archer	SP	32	PIT										$11,000,000	-
Matt Shoemaker	SP	34	TOR						25.7	4.91	0		$4,200,000	-	1
Alex Wood	SP	30	LAD						4	6.75	0		$4,000,000	-	1
Drew Smyly	SP	32	SF						8.3	3.24	0		$4,000,000	-	1.17
Brad Peacock	SP	33	HOU										$3,900,000	-
Rich Hill	SP	41	MIN						16	3.94	1		$3,000,000	-	1
Merrill Kelly	SP	32	ARI						31.3	2.59	3		$4,250,000	-	1
Kendall Graveman	SP	30	SEA						8.7	8.31	0		$3,500,000	-	1
Taijuan Walker	SP	28	TOR						33	3.27	3		$2,000,000	-	1
Ivan Nova	SP	34	DET						19	8.53	1		$1,500,000	-	1
Tom Milone	SP	34	ATL						31.7	5.68	1		$1,000,000	-	1
Shelby Miller	SP	30	MIL										$1,000,000	-
Felix Hernandez	SP	35	ATL										$1,000,000	-
Wade LeBlanc	SP	36	BAL						22.3	8.06	1		$800,000	-	1
Brad Keller	SP	25	KC						28	1.93	3		$613,000	-	1
Collin McHugh	SP	34	BOS										$600,000	-
Eric Jokisch	SP	31	OAK										-	-
Chad Bettis	SP	32	NYY										-	-
Nate Karns	SP	33	BAL										-	-
Zeke Spruill	SP	31	TEX										-	-
James Jones	SP	32	TEX										-	-
John Holdzkom	SP	33	CHW										-	-
Taylor Thompson	SP	34	OAK										-	-
Scott Snodgress	SP	31	CHW										-	-
Mitch Atkins	SP	35	NYM										-	-
Michael Roth	SP	31	TEX										-	-
Hiram Burgos	SP	33	MIL										-	-
Erasmo Ramirez	SP	31	NYM										-	-

 

[kevinb]

It’s been fun. But no chance I’d offer a qualifying offering in fear he’d take it. The money and all the money in the offseason should be spent on pitching. Nothing else. It’s the reason I said to trade him at the deadline. 

[Claude]

15 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

He has a 8.0 walk %, highest of his career. Small sample size, of course, but it is fun correcting you with facts.

That’s fine he’s great defensively, injury prone and has very little pop in his bat. Singles and walks is his thing. I just think Didi and Fletcher would provide a solid defensive core in the middle and add some pop. Didi can reach that RF yellow line and he hits good in Anaheim.

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

I would have preferred to trade him and get something.  anything in return.  

Resign him on the cheap as his value has decreased substantially over the last two years.  mostly due to injury.  

He was a 3-4 WAR player and now you can't bank on that.  I know this doesn't seem fair because he was so good before, but I'm at 3/21 for him right now.  I think he's worth a bit more but also because there aren't many teams out there in need of a defense only SS no matter how good he is.  Plus there are other available players who are better.  

There is no way in hell I give him a QO for 18m.  

I think we offer him a 2 year contract at an increased annual salary. I think most players in his situation would look to sign a one year deal, but with the amount of great free agent shortstops next year he's gona want to skip that class.

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 hour ago, Blarg said:

Fletcher is in no way close to Simmons defense at SS. And Simmons would still be better defensively three seasons from now than Fletcher. 

The real question is Rengifo's value moving forward as to whether Simmons is offered a contract, not Fletcher's defense. Because if Rengifo can provide either SS or 2nd base coverage along with a reasonable enough replication of his AAA performance at the MLB level with the bat then Simmons defense only value is offset. Jones and Barreto are cost controlled infield depth which leaves all cash savings for pitching. 

The real linchpin is Rengifo. If he can't step up the extending Simmons will be necessary. 

I'm fairly confident the plan is to let Simmons walk, move Fletcher to SS, and then platoon Rengifo and Barreto at second until one of them emerges. 

I don't like that plan, for the record.

[floplag]

Not voting as it depends entirely upon how or recent trace return performs.   Have to see what Barretto brings to the table to evaluate.
That having been said, Simba needs to put up some big numbers here on out to justify 18M, like 2016/17 esque numbers and stay healthy.  If he cant do either of those things, as much as ive been on board with an extension, id have to say thanks and good luck.
If i had to guess right now, were looking at Fletcher/Baretto up the middle in 21 baring something unexpected.

[angelsnationtalk]

I wouldn't pay him anything more than $8M/yr. 

We all know Fletcher isn't as good defensively compared to Simmons.... NO ONE IS
So to compare the glove we would lose makes no sense. 

Let Simmons walk. Should have traded him for another BP arm when we had the chance. 
Giving him a QO is one of the worst moves Eppler/whoever the GM is can do to this team.

If it upsets people then sign LaStella again...

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 minutes ago, Randy Gradishar said:

I don't think Eppler's that stupid. Especially after seeing what a mistake he made with Calhoun, and there were actually good reasons for that.

There is literally not one reason to let Simmons go, other than tanking.

I don't know about that. Eppler has two candidates to replace him and has to work within a budget. I think there is a lot of temptation to let Simmons walk.

[Hubs]

Here's the upcoming free agents at infield positions, sorted by 2020 WAR. There are a few more but they have negative 2020 WAR.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/free-agents/ufa/infield/

 

 

 

Player Option

 

Club Option

Cesar Hernandez	2B	31	CLE	38	11	2	.268	.752					$6,250,000		1.08
D.J. LeMahieu	2B	32	NYY	37	10	4	.402	1.031					$12,000,000		1.05
Jonathan Schoop	2B	29	DET	38	20	8	.311	.891					$6,100,000		0.86
Justin Turner	3B	36	LAD	33	20	2	.282	.794					$20,000,000		0.74
Brad Miller	2B	31	PHI	20	18	4	.317	1.069					$2,000,000		0.63
Didi Gregorius	SS	31	PHI	31	19	5	.279	.830					$14,000,000		0.48
Jason Kipnis	2B	34	CHC	15	11	2	.231	.785					$1,000,000		0.45
Maikel Franco	3B	28	KC	34	19	6	.254	.772					$2,950,000		0.39
Tommy La Stella	2B	32	OAK	27	15	4	.265	.822					$3,250,000		0.36
Chris Owings	2B	29	COL	11	5	2	.268	.757					$563,500		0.2
Andrelton Simmons	SS	31	LAA	14	2		.304	.686					$15,000,000		0.1
Marcus Semien	SS	30	OAK	32	12	5	.229	.664					$13,000,000		0.03
Eduardo Nunez	3B	34	NYM	1			.500	1.000					$1,250,000		0.03
Asdrubal Cabrera	2B	35	WSH	27	18	5	.233	.733					$2,500,000		-0.04
Marwin Gonzalez	3B	32	MIN	25	13	3	.219	.614					$9,000,000		-0.06
Jurickson Profar	2B	28	SD	24	14	5	.226	.697					$5,700,000		-0.07
Freddy Galvis	SS	31	CIN	20	11	6	.213	.731					$5,500,000		-0.1
Neil Walker	2B	35	PHI	5	1		.192	.483	0.7				$1,000,000		-0.25
Ehire Adrianza	SS	31	MIN	10	2		.185	.495	1				$1,600,000		-0.29
Adeiny Hechavarria	SS	32	ATL	5			.192	.453					$1,000,000		-0.32
Joe Panik	2B	30	TOR	13			.217	.555					$2,850,000		-0.33

[Hubs]

Hernandez, LeMahieu, Schoop, Miller, Gregorius, LaStella, Semien, and Simmons all make sense.

[AngelsLakersFan]

6 minutes ago, Randy Gradishar said:

Eh, he's cheap and I don't think Barreto is considered the next Tatis. 

This year proved that they have the right amount of MIFs and UTs, and they just swapped one UT out for another.

It's a lot cheaper to re-sign Simmons than to sign 6 pitchers and watch them all far apart with this defense. 

Rengifo and Barreto seems pretty redundant if you are keeping Simmons.