What are you rooting for?

[Claude]

Rooting for Arte to sell the team or pull  the plug on Eppler and hire a real President of Baseball Operations guy to commence a true rebuilding process. They could start with a couple of buyouts immediately and just allow the youngsters to play. It’s ridiculous that one of the top 10 highest payroll teams is going to miss the playoffs for six seasons in a row and most likely next season also. 

[Dtwncbad]

8 minutes ago, RendZone said:

Rooting for Arte to sell the team or pull  the plug on Eppler and hire a real President of Baseball Operations guy to commence a true rebuilding process. They could start with a couple of buyouts immediately and just allow the youngsters to play. It’s ridiculous that one of the top 10 highest payroll teams is going to miss the playoffs for six seasons in a row and most likely next season also. 

How many times do people have to be reminded that there is no such thing as a “buyout” of a major league contract?

The CBA specifically makes it impossible for any player to ever have their contract modified in any way that results in them receiving even one penny less than what was already guaranteed.  Even if the player wanted to do it, it still can’t be done.

So from now on, if you want to type the word “buyout”, simply replace the word “buyout” with “unicorn” and see if your sentence still makes sense. . . Because they are exactly as realistic.

[Claude]

Just now, Dtwncbad said:

How many times do people have to be reminded that there is no such thing as a “buyout” of a major league contract?

The CBA specifically makes it impossible for any player to ever have their contract modified in any way that results in them receiving even one penny less than what was already guaranteed.  Even if the player wanted to do it, it still can’t be done.

So from now on, if you want to type the word “buyout”, simply replace the word “buyout” with “unicorn” and see if your sentence still makes sense. . . Because they are exactly as realistic.

 

Just now, Dtwncbad said:

How many times do people have to be reminded that there is no such thing as a “buyout” of a major league contract?

The CBA specifically makes it impossible for any player to ever have their contract modified in any way that results in them receiving even one penny less than what was already guaranteed.  Even if the player wanted to do it, it still can’t be done.

So from now on, if you want to type the word “buyout”, simply replace the word “buyout” with “unicorn” and see if your sentence still makes sense. . . Because they are exactly as realistic.

When I say buyout, I mean pay them in full and open up two roster spots. 

[Dtwncbad]

1 minute ago, RendZone said:

 

When I say buyout, I mean pay them in full and open up two roster spots. 

So just say release them to open up the roster spot.  That’s much more clear.

[Inside Pitch]

43 minutes ago, nate said:

The Angels greatest success came with a very conservative GM, the one difference being the amount of home grown talent the Angels were able to bring up.  Eppler took over a farm system that was more barren than Victors mom.

It's funny.  People say they understand the farm was bad, or at least they will acknowledge it.  But it's pretty clear from how quickly they disregard that fact that they have no idea how historically bad it was.

[Docwaukee]

9 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

It's funny.  People say they understand the farm was bad, or at least they will acknowledge it.  But it's pretty clear from how quickly they disregard that fact that they have no idea how historically bad it was.

I keep bringing this up when people trash Billy about not getting any pitching into the farm system.  There was literally almost nothing and he was tasked with adding as much talent as he could in any way shape or farm.  It's tremendously better but still feeling the effects of having been so so bad.  He made a decision to go with high upside position players thinking (presumably) that pitchers were more volatile.  There's only so much magic to be had when you don't draft in the top five and have to allocate your resources to the mlb club.  

I have a specific question for you.  I know you're not a Dipoto fan (nor am I), but given the opportunity to rebuild and bring you talent into the M's org, it seems he's done a nice job.  The only way to reconcile that in my opinion is that there has to be a directive from Arte to make the club competitive year in and year out which does and will continue to handcuff any GM for the halos.  What's your opinion on that? 

[AngelsFaninGA]

22 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

It's funny.  People say they understand the farm was bad, or at least they will acknowledge it.  But it's pretty clear from how quickly they disregard that fact that they have no idea how historically bad it was.

True, considering that it's improved considerably and is still pretty awful

[Claude]

14 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

So just say release them to open up the roster spot.  That’s much more clear.

One of the problems is that the Angels refuse to acknowledge when it’s time for a player to go. I can totally see next season will not be any different. It looks like we are all going to have to ride it out. We also have to understand that the great Trout years will blow right past us during that time. 
Last night’s game with the Padres was an example how quickly they built a team around Machado. That team is refreshing and I would rather see the Angels just clean house and start over. 

[Dtwncbad]

1 minute ago, RendZone said:

One of the problems is that the Angels refuse to acknowledge when it’s time for a player to go. I can totally see next season will not be any different. It looks like we are all going to have to ride it out. We also have to understand that the great Trout years will blow right past us during that time. 
Last night’s game with the Padres was an example how quickly they built a team around Machado. That team is refreshing and I would rather see the Angels just clean house and start over. 

How quickly they built a team around Machado?

You have it backwards.  Over many years they built a massive stockpile of minor league talent all emerging at about the same time and then purchased Machado to add him to the equation.

[nate]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

How quickly they built a team around Machado?

You have it backwards.  Over many years they built a massive stockpile of minor league talent all emerging at about the same time and then purchased Machado to add him to the equation.

Yep, exactly, and they had numerous top 10 picks.  The Angels have just been bad but not really bad every year so they haven't been in that sweet spot for draft picks.

[Dtwncbad]

Just now, nate said:

Yep, exactly, and they had numerous top 10 picks.  The Angels have just been bad but not really bad every year so they haven't been in that sweet spot for draft picks.

Buying a 26 year old (or was Machado 27?) at a high price was easily digestible for them knowing how many other players they had cost controlled coming up.

[Claude]

23 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Buying a 26 year old (or was Machado 27?) at a high price was easily digestible for them knowing how many other players they had cost controlled coming up.

In that same timeframe they didn’t spend foolishly on yesterday’s heroes. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

I have a specific question for you.  I know you're not a Dipoto fan (nor am I), but given the opportunity to rebuild and bring you talent into the M's org, it seems he's done a nice job.  The only way to reconcile that in my opinion is that there has to be a directive from Arte to make the club competitive year in and year out which does and will continue to handcuff any GM for the halos.  What's your opinion on that? 

The biggest difference up there is he didn't dismantle their scouting dept.  The M's had one of the best international scouting depts (especially in Asia), and a very strong and established scouting dept as a whole.   Roger Jongerwaard was as good at building scouting departments as the Sutherlands were or Logan White is now.  He left the M's in like 2004 or so (went to the Rays and oversaw their climb to respectability), but his fingerprints remain all over the place.   He was also gifted with the Cano trade.  That was just a unique situation..  new GM former agent wants his guy and gets his guy.   That trade will haunt Brodie forever and keep JD in free dinners for a good decade...  as it should.

Seriously -- check out their actual drafts and look over the names and their prospect status...   http://www.thebaseballcube.com/draft/teams/byTeam.asp?T=26  You go 1-10 every year since he got there and you see the good first rounder and then a bunch of filler -- which is pretty much the norm..     Most of the good stuff came from the selling off of assets that had been acquired by his predecessor.   So you gotta give him props, but he had material to work with which is more than can be said for what he left behind in Anaheim.

Ultimately the same story applies to JD and the M's as it does to everyone else -- the young guys have to come up and produce.  So far Lewis (3rd overall) is doing it, Evan White isn't.   Considering they committed money to White, they likely need him to pan out.  JP Crawford and Shed Long are also a part of what is supposed to be their core, neither looks like a future star, not that they need to be but... they don't figure to even be what Aybar and Kendrick were based on their early performances.   What I do like is that he's been able to add a lot of college pitching the last three years.  Logan White (who I loved), George Kirby, and now Emmerson Hancock..  Not sure if you've noticed but he's also drafted a guy the Angels drafted as sophomore (coming off injury) and didn't sign, Isaiah Campbell.

As far as the Halos go.   You've said this before, and it's something I 100% agree with -- Eppler came into a situation with no money and a pitching staff that was supposed to anchor his 5 years as GM..    The only guy that is still around is Heaney, and he missed 18 months with TJS too..   Shoemaker -- injuries and a freak accident.  Richards injury after injury.  Skaggs TJS and then stupidity.   The Angels drafts were high risk/high reward and focused on position players..   Maybe they were dumb to have believed the guys at the MLB level would stay healthy -- but they tried to focus on what they had and what they needed..  which unfortunately was everything.

Farm wise.... I don't really believe Arte held Eppler back other than maybe skimping on the scouting department which is beyond stupid..  I think the situation was just very bleak and Eppler chose to try to create position player depth.   How much Arte held back financially at the MLB level.  I have no clue, but there is no question the AP and Hamilton deals were obstacles.

[Inside Pitch]

29 minutes ago, Randy Gradishar said:

What's interesting is that besides Clevinger, what exactly did Dipoto do to destroy the farm? I haven't heard of any other former Angels besides Rondon and Segura.

So is it just pure bad drafting, including the Reagins era? Or not doing enough sneaky moves to aquire prospects like Eppler has?

Mostly bad drafting.   He inherited a team that had three top 100 guys including Trout, Segura and Chatwood.  He also had Shoemaker, Richards, Cron, Calhoun, Amarista, Conger, Ryan Brasier, in the upper minors.   The issue was he adding nothing of any real value save for David Fletcher and Sean Newcomb.

[Stradling]

Something else that I think gets ignored when people don’t like the draft strategy is the “success” Eppler has had in the first two rounds of the draft.  In the guys he has drafted in the first two rounds, Thaiss, Marsh, Adell, Canning,  Adams, Jackson, Wilson, Paris and now Detmers, they’ve all been considered good picks in the fact that none of been busts.  Marsh, Adell, Canning, Adams and now Detmers have all at one time or another been in a top 100 MLB prospect list.  Jackson hasn’t yet, but he set a record for homers in his league while being younger than the competition.  The bust I guess would be trading Wilson.  I guess we will see where it goes.  Even if you call Thaiss a bust, which I think it is way too early to say that, then he backed up that pick with Marsh who once again is a top 50 or so prospect in the game.  

[mmc]

5 hours ago, Stradling said:

Something else that I think gets ignored when people don’t like the draft strategy is the “success” Eppler has had in the first two rounds of the draft.  In the guys he has drafted in the first two rounds, Thaiss, Marsh, Adell, Canning,  Adams, Jackson, Wilson, Paris and now Detmers, they’ve all been considered good picks in the fact that none of been busts.  Marsh, Adell, Canning, Adams and now Detmers have all at one time or another been in a top 100 MLB prospect list.  Jackson hasn’t yet, but he set a record for homers in his league while being younger than the competition.  The bust I guess would be trading Wilson.  I guess we will see where it goes.  Even if you call Thaiss a bust, which I think it is way too early to say that, then he backed up that pick with Marsh who once again is a top 50 or so prospect in the game.  

None of those picks can be considered successes until they become productive major leaguers

[Stradling]

Just now, mymerlincat said:

None of those picks can be considered successes until they become productive major leaguers

Ok.  If you say so.  

[mmc]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Ok.  If you say so.  

If none of these players produce any better at any level than they have so far, if in 10 years from now you looked back at these selections, would you still say that the picks were successful?

[Stradling]

9 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

If none of these players produce any better at any level than they have so far, if in 10 years from now you looked back at these selections, would you still say that the picks were successful?

No, I wouldn’t.  But we are discussing this in real time.  In real time, what he is doing is working because if it wasn’t they wouldn’t be ranked as high as they are.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

42 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

None of those picks can be considered successes until they become productive major leaguers

They are appreciating assets. Eppler could cash out right now.

[Erstad Grit]

I'm rooting for Angels to draft Leiter.

Dodgers to lose 1st round , hopefully with Kershaw getting pounded and Roberts making horrible decisions

I'd like to see Rays or Padres make a run 

[Docwaukee]

18 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

They are appreciating assets. Eppler could cash out right now.

exactly.  he could cash in three of them for a front of the rotation starter right now.  Would that be a success?

[AngelsLakersFan]

5 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

exactly.  he could cash in three of them for a front of the rotation starter right now.  Would that be a success?

Only if they reach the majors and pwn the Angels.

[Docwaukee]

8 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

The biggest difference up there is he didn't dismantle their scouting dept.  The M's had one of the best international scouting depts (especially in Asia), and a very strong and established scouting dept as a whole.   Roger Jongerwaard was as good at building scouting departments as the Sutherlands were or Logan White is now.  He left the M's in like 2004 or so (went to the Rays and oversaw their climb to respectability), but his fingerprints remain all over the place.   He was also gifted with the Cano trade.  That was just a unique situation..  new GM former agent wants his guy and gets his guy.   That trade will haunt Brodie forever and keep JD in free dinners for a good decade...  as it should.

Seriously -- check out their actual drafts and look over the names and their prospect status...   http://www.thebaseballcube.com/draft/teams/byTeam.asp?T=26  You go 1-10 every year since he got there and you see the good first rounder and then a bunch of filler -- which is pretty much the norm..     Most of the good stuff came from the selling off of assets that had been acquired by his predecessor.   So you gotta give him props, but he had material to work with which is more than can be said for what he left behind in Anaheim.

Ultimately the same story applies to JD and the M's as it does to everyone else -- the young guys have to come up and produce.  So far Lewis (3rd overall) is doing it, Evan White isn't.   Considering they committed money to White, they likely need him to pan out.  JP Crawford and Shed Long are also a part of what is supposed to be their core, neither looks like a future star, not that they need to be but... they don't figure to even be what Aybar and Kendrick were based on their early performances.   What I do like is that he's been able to add a lot of college pitching the last three years.  Logan White (who I loved), George Kirby, and now Emmerson Hancock..  Not sure if you've noticed but he's also drafted a guy the Angels drafted as sophomore (coming off injury) and didn't sign, Isaiah Campbell.

As far as the Halos go.   You've said this before, and it's something I 100% agree with -- Eppler came into a situation with no money and a pitching staff that was supposed to anchor his 5 years as GM..    The only guy that is still around is Heaney, and he missed 18 months with TJS too..   Shoemaker -- injuries and a freak accident.  Richards injury after injury.  Skaggs TJS and then stupidity.   The Angels drafts were high risk/high reward and focused on position players..   Maybe they were dumb to have believed the guys at the MLB level would stay healthy -- but they tried to focus on what they had and what they needed..  which unfortunately was everything.

Farm wise.... I don't really believe Arte held Eppler back other than maybe skimping on the scouting department which is beyond stupid..  I think the situation was just very bleak and Eppler chose to try to create position player depth.   How much Arte held back financially at the MLB level.  I have no clue, but there is no question the AP and Hamilton deals were obstacles.

why did JD dismantle the scouting department yet keep it intact for the M's?  I agree with you 1000% that I think his draft strategy is for shit after the first round or two.  But I keep coming back to the one thing that bothers me about the Angels current approach.  Any time there has been an expiring or redundant asset over the last ten years and it could be exchanged for something of future value, it, by and large, goes to the major league club.   A philosophy that's never going to result in max value.  Unless of course your GM gets every move right.  

I think Eppler is a good GM.  I also think the acquisitions of guys like Barreto and Naughton are apropos to his directive.  I guess I feel like we keep dipping our foot in the pool waiting for it to be the perfect temp.  Time to jump in or walk away.  Problem is now you might be committed to jump in regardless.  They're in a pretty tough spot unless we see some advancement from the young guys more quickly than expected.  

[T.G.]

54 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

exactly.  he could cash in three of them for a front of the rotation starter right now.  Would that be a success?

Who?