Ohtani had discomfort, got an MRI

[Tank]

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Erstad Grit said:

Sorry if I'm not excited that after him not pitching in 2019 he pitches less than 2 innings in 2020. 

That's cool...  Sorry you can't be excited that there is still a chance he will be able to pitch in 2021, 2022, 2023, etc etc...

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

That's cool...  Sorry you can't be excited that there is still a chance he will be able to pitch in 2021, 2022, 2023, etc etc...

But, have you considered #distraction?

[southpaw]

13 hours ago, Tank said:

You’re very welcome.

Let us know when you have a recording available. 
 

Do you teach choral or instrumental?

instrumental

[Claude]

6 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

That's cool...  Sorry you can't be excited that there is still a chance he will be able to pitch in 2021, 2022, 2023, etc etc...

Look, everyone likes Ohtani. There’s no question that he works out and does everything he can to be the best that he can be. The truth is that he has never been 100% healthy since the day they signed him. He got here with an ankle that was healing and a Grade 1 tear in his elbow. He then needed Tommy John surgery and a knee surgery. Now this latest forearm issue. That’s a lot to go through in the little time that he’s been here.
 

This guy might have pushed his two-way talent too hard too fast. They really need to decide what is best for his future. He really didn’t pitch much in his first appearance or his second with a weeks rest and yet his arm is already hurting. I question if his arm is going to be healthy enough for 30 starts in each of 2021-2022-2023 etc etc etc...

[Taylor]

28 minutes ago, RendZone said:

Look, everyone likes Ohtani. There’s no question that he works out and does everything he can to be the best that he can be. The truth is that he has never been 100% healthy since the day they signed him. He got here with an ankle that was healing and a Grade 1 tear in his elbow. He then needed Tommy John surgery and a knee surgery. Now this latest forearm issue. That’s a lot to go through in the little time that he’s been here.
 

This guy might have pushed his two-way talent too hard too fast. They really need to decide what is best for his future. He really didn’t pitch much in his first appearance or his second with a weeks rest and yet his arm is already hurting. I question if his arm is going to be healthy enough for 30 starts in each of 2021-2022-2023 etc etc etc...

Or, we can hope for the best and just see what happens next year.

[Claude]

Just now, Taylor said:

Or, we can hope for the best and just see what happens next year.

again

[Stradling]

33 minutes ago, RendZone said:

Look, everyone likes Ohtani. There’s no question that he works out and does everything he can to be the best that he can be. The truth is that he has never been 100% healthy since the day they signed him. He got here with an ankle that was healing and a Grade 1 tear in his elbow. He then needed Tommy John surgery and a knee surgery. Now this latest forearm issue. That’s a lot to go through in the little time that he’s been here.
 

This guy might have pushed his two-way talent too hard too fast. They really need to decide what is best for his future. He really didn’t pitch much in his first appearance or his second with a weeks rest and yet his arm is already hurting. I question if his arm is going to be healthy enough for 30 starts in each of 2021-2022-2023 etc etc etc...

This they?

On 8/3/2020 at 11:49 AM, RendZone said:

Great post. I agree that a lot of caution and care will have to be used in this situation. I just don’t see Eppler calling Ohtani in and saying “too bad so sad about your pitching arm but you work for us and you’re an outfielder now”

 

[Angelsjunky]

11 minutes ago, Taylor said:

Or, we can hope for the best and just see what happens next year.

But let's be honest: that's what we've been doing for three years now.

When he was signed, it was very exciting and we all hoped that he'd be a star pitcher and at least a good hitter.

In 2018, he flashed both but after he got hurt, we hoped that in 2019 he would continue to develop as a hitter; his overall numbers declined - from a 151 to 123 wRC+.

This year we hoped he'd come back and be able to stay healthy as a pitcher, while returning to 2018 form with the bat. He looked awful pitching and is now done for the year. Jury is out on his bat.

Now we're hoping that he'll be able to pitch next year.

I'm still optimistic that Ohtani will be a consistent 140+ wRC+ bat, which would make him a top 20 hitter in the majors, borderline top 10. But I'm more bearish on his ability to stay healthy as a pitcher--not giving up, just not optimistic. I think if he cannot come back in 2021 and stay healthy, the Angels will have serious talks with him about focusing on hitting only, perhaps transitioning to 1B or a corner outfield spot. 

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Angelsjunky

[Claude]

5 minutes ago, Stradling said:

This they?

 

They meaning the organization coming to grips that he may better serve the team as a permanent DH and not an outfielder or 1st Baseman. 

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, RendZone said:

Look, everyone likes Ohtani. There’s no question that he works out and does everything he can to be the best that he can be. The truth is that he has never been 100% healthy since the day they signed him. He got here with an ankle that was healing and a Grade 1 tear in his elbow. He then needed Tommy John surgery and a knee surgery. Now this latest forearm issue. That’s a lot to go through in the little time that he’s been here.

LOL... 

Everyone is aware of his injury history, Captain Obvious.  I love how you always manage to spend so much time spewing info that is common knowledge and has nothing to do with what you're actually responding to.   

I'm going to dumb this down as best I can in hopes you understand the point I was making.... that so long as there is a "chance" that Ohtani can continue to pitch, there is a reason to be hopeful he can be that two way player everyone HOPES he can be.   That's it.   Pretty simply concept that shouldn't require explaining and yet, here we are..   BTW...  being hopeful and expecting it to happen aren't synonyms.  

As far as the rest of your pap goes -- of course you question if he can stay healthy.    Like water always finds it level, for you the worst case scenario is always the baseline.   I wouldn't expect anything less from you.  

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

I'm still optimistic that Ohtani will be a consistent 140+ wRC+ bat, which would make him a top 20 hitter in the majors, borderline top 10. But I'm more bearish on his ability to stay healthy as a pitcher--not giving up, just not optimistic

This is IMO a healthy/realistic position to have, but that's a self serving statement given I agree with you across the board.   The pitching is iffy IMO, which is why I have said in a previous post the team can't fall into the Garrett Richards trap of "hoping" again.   Also why I hope we see Sandoval pitching.  Seems Fletch believes it will be Andriese though.

2 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

I think if he cannot come back in 2021 and stay healthy, the Angels will have serious talks with him about focusing on hitting only, perhaps transitioning to 1B or a corner outfield spot. 

Sorry AJ, while this is a totally reasonable position to have, it's already been ruled out.   Clod says they have an iron-clad "gentlemen's agreement" in place and so he is a DH or nothing at all.  Otherwise the Angels would be strong-arming him into doing their bidding because reasons..   

[Claude]

3 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Sorry AJ, while this is a totally reasonable position to have, it's already been ruled out.   Clod says they have an iron-clad "gentlemen's agreement" in place and so he is a DH or nothing at all.  Otherwise they Angels would be strong-arming him into doing their bidding because reasons..   

There was definitely some type of agreement that transpired. First thing is that we were desperate to get him in the first place. That’s ok because he was unique and very talented and we had no farm to speak of.
Most young international signings spend some time in AAA but he didn’t. I’m sure that was part of the deal. He only wanted to pitch on Sunday’s so that is also a unique request which I’m sure had some of the other starters talking under their breath but ok, whatever. The two-way player thing is not an easy-peazy thing to do. It’s also not a very easy thing for the team to manage. Juggling his schedule also means that they have to juggle most of every other players schedules. With all that being said we’ve witnessed some greatness at times but it certainly hasn’t been sustainable. His pitching has been gone since 2018 and his hitting has been pretty shaky. If he wants to pitch then shut him down and let him get ready for next spring. I think he can turn into a very dangerous hitter but he can’t do both and be successful at both long term. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, RendZone said:

There was definitely some type of agreement that transpired. First thing is that we were desperate to get him in the first place. That’s ok because he was unique and very talented and we had no farm to speak of.

Of course there was an agreement...  EVERY deal ever required an agreement.

And don't look now but all 30 teams were desperate to get him and every team in MLB wanted him to be a two way player.   The Yankees were so desperate to get him they made multiple trades to acquire international money, ditto Seattle -- they even brought out their big guns.  You were predicting NYY would win because "Yankees" and "endorsement opportunities".   Hell, you predicted the Angels wouldn't even make an offer.

1 hour ago, RendZone said:

Most young international signings spend some time in AAA but he didn’t. I’m sure that was part of the deal.

Ohtani was posted.  Top tier posting candidates have typically gone straight to MLB.   You're ignoring facts and creating a narrative but history is clear here.

1 hour ago, RendZone said:

He only wanted to pitch on Sunday’s so that is also a unique request which I’m sure had some of the other starters talking under their breath but ok, whatever.  

It was common knowledge he wanted to try to stay on the same schedule he was on in Japan.  Every team that put an offer in knew this was the case -- all but ONE team (the Orioles), put in the posting fees.  Again, this is factual history.  The pitchers talking under their breath -- 100% you creating a false fact.  Clod 101.   

1 hour ago, RendZone said:

The two-way player thing is not an easy-peazy thing to do. It’s also not a very easy thing for the team to manage.

"If I use more words then they might not notice I have nothing to actually say" -- Clod.     Thanks for the insight, Captain Obvious

1 hour ago, RendZone said:

Juggling his schedule also means that they have to juggle most of every other players schedules.

AJ, myself and others posted how the Angels could pitch him once a week and not really throw others (like Gerrit Cole) off their regular schedule due to off days and travel days.   AJ even put his up in pretty colors.   But I guess your point is that everyone else was being put out by Ohtani?  Of course that's what you would think.    This only became an issue (a negative) when he became an Angel.

1 hour ago, RendZone said:

 With all that being said we’ve witnessed some greatness at times but it certainly hasn’t been sustainable. 

Unga bunga inga binga unga bunga...    Yeah, I didn't say anything, figured I'd follow your lead.

1 hour ago, RendZone said:

His pitching has been gone since 2018 and his hitting has been pretty shaky. 

2018 -- 151 OPS+
2019 -- 122 OPS+
Career 132 OPS+
"Shaky"

1 hour ago, RendZone said:

If he wants to pitch then shut him down and let him get ready for next spring. I think he can turn into a very dangerous hitter but he can’t do both and be successful at both long term. 

Ok!

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

I love how you always manage to spend so much time spewing info that is common knowledge and has nothing to do with what you're actually responding to.   

20 minutes later...

36 minutes ago, RendZone said:

There was definitely some type of agreement that transpired. First thing is that we were desperate to get him in the first place. That’s ok because he was unique and very talented and we had no farm to speak of.
Most young international signings spend some time in AAA but he didn’t. I’m sure that was part of the deal. He only wanted to pitch on Sunday’s so that is also a unique request which I’m sure had some of the other starters talking under their breath but ok, whatever. The two-way player thing is not an easy-peazy thing to do. It’s also not a very easy thing for the team to manage. Juggling his schedule also means that they have to juggle most of every other players schedules. With all that being said we’ve witnessed some greatness at times but it certainly hasn’t been sustainable. His pitching has been gone since 2018 and his hitting has been pretty shaky. If he wants to pitch then shut him down and let him get ready for next spring. I think he can turn into a very dangerous hitter but he can’t do both and be successful at both long term. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, RendZone said:

His pitching has been gone since 2018 and his hitting has been pretty shaky. 

 

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

2018 -- 151 OPS+
2019 -- 122 OPS+
Career 132 OPS+
"Shaky"

Anthony Rendon -- Career OPS+ 126
Anthony Rendon -- OPS+ Through age 25 -- 110

Shaky Shohei Ohtani through age 25...  132 OPS+

Good talk

[Claude]

26 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

Anthony Rendon -- Career OPS+ 126
Anthony Rendon -- OPS+ Through age 25 -- 110

Shaky Shohei Ohtani through age 25...  132 OPS+

Good talk

I was referring to his hitting this season. He looked lost in all three series. The two-way thing is too taxing. That’s my point. 

[Stradling]

41 minutes ago, RendZone said:

I was referring to his hitting this season. He looked lost in all three series. The two-way thing is too taxing. That’s my point. 

So the only conclusion is it’s a Two Way issue.  He can’t be off to a slow start like Yelich or Bellinger or countless other guys?

[Claude]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

So the only conclusion is it’s a Two Way issue.  He can’t be off to a slow start like Yelich or Bellinger or countless other guys?

The two-way issue seems to be too taxing on him physically. It’s a great story but it’s not working if he has to miss time at either.

[rafibomb]

 

 This is good. Let him rest his arm and get an actual rehab in next season.

[CanadianHalo]

6 hours ago, Stradling said:

no shit.  But it was a squat.  

A deadlift is not a squat. If you’re trying to replicate your squatting motion while deadlifting your deadlifting form is trash.

I can’t remember if Ohtani was using wraps while deadlifting but regardless his forearms are still being used to hold the barbell. I immediately thought back to the video after seeing the diagnosis of the injury. I’d like to think he isn’t doing heavy deadlifts during the season. Deadlifts are a great compound movement but they’re extremely taxing on your body. I couldn’t even imagine doing heavy deadlifts and then having to play baseball later that day or the next

[Stradling]

14 minutes ago, CanadianHalo said:

A deadlift is not a squat. If you’re trying to replicate your squatting motion while deadlifting your deadlifting form is trash.

I can’t remember if Ohtani was using wraps while deadlifting but regardless his forearms are still being used to hold the barbell. I immediately thought back to the video after seeing the diagnosis of the injury. I’d like to think he isn’t doing heavy deadlifts during the season. Deadlifts are a great compound movement but they’re extremely taxing on your body. I couldn’t even imagine doing heavy deadlifts and then having to play baseball later that day or the next

Thanks for the clarification.   My bad.  

[eligrba]

I have felt discomfort from the first game. Maybe I need an MRI?

[Dtwncbad]

Since day one the Angels have wanted to keep Ohtani on a schedule he is used to.

So that now includes Ohtani getting shut down now and missing two months.

No word yet on what date he will get shut down next year.