Updated Fangraphs farm system rankings

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, floplag said:

You are the master of saving shit to try to throw in peoples faces... 

Saving shit?  It's public history you dolt.. 

I know it pisses you off that I tend to remember what people say, but it's not my fault you like to say stupid things that can easily be re-posted for everyone to see.   Fact is you created a false narrative about the goal being a top 5 system -- it never has been and if anyone believes that then they are as dense and incapable of seeing the forest for the trees as you are.   I'm sorry it pains you that I chose to clear everyone else of being at fault for something that didn't actually happen but, you're the one that's full of shit. 

Stop being full of shit

2 hours ago, floplag said:

and thank you capt obvious for the rest of that 

If it's so obvious how is it you failed to see it?   How is it you don't see how they have actually graduated players that are helping them moving forward?
 

2 hours ago, floplag said:

but if youre going to give Eppler the credit for progress the last few years does he not get the blame for the fallback? 

What the hell are you even trying to say.  What fallback are you talking about?  Im not trying to be evasive, I just don't know what it is you're referencing as a fallback.  If you're talking about FV rankings then, again... learn how they work.
 

2 hours ago, floplag said:

 I realize the farm is holy ground to some of you and any critique of it bring out the inner zealot but the fact is the fact, we fell back this year and also have mode no strides at the ML level.  

Here you go again with the limp backhanded comments you would claim are personal attacks if they were aimed at you... Always the hyprocite.   Stop pretending you know what anyone else thinks -- you're barely capable of intelligently expressing yourself.   "Holy ground", "zealotry" -- lots of weak smack and no substance as usual.   Want me to post the 50K posts from you this offseason about them not spending enough?    

To say the MLB lvl hasn't made strides is ignorant.  It ignores the ascent of multiple players who are in fact moving the needle in the right direction. 

Now maybe you can create another false narrative about how everyone has punted on 2020 too.

2 hours ago, floplag said:

 We have our work cut out for us this off season if we are to be anything more than an indefinite 500 ballclub. 

This season?  

Edited August 1, 2019 by Inside Pitch

[Inside Pitch]

14 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

Sure $14 million in excess value seems useful, but by those same calculations Mike Trout was providing like $80 million in excess value per season when he first came up. If Eppler is so good and the farm is so good then why don't we have like 5 more guys like that in the system?

Five more guys like Trout?  or like the guys that have already come up?   

Do you consider the guys that came up this year finished products?  Is that 14 mil in excess value all they will ever supply?

Are you capable of telling us the futures of the players drafted in 2017, 2018 and 2019 today?  If you can, then ill gladly tell you how good Eppler's work was and how good the farm system was.  You answer that question and I'll be better able to give you on opinion on yours, deal?

BTW, did you notice I included Barria, Eppler doesn't get credit for him..  He doesnt get credit for Fletcher either..  it's not about Eppler, it's about the farm infusing the MLB with value.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Inside Pitch

[AngelsFanSince86]

9 minutes ago, floplag said:

You are the master of saving shit to try to throw in peoples faces... and thank you capt obvious for the rest of that but if youre going to give Eppler the credit for progress the last few years does he not get the blame for the fallback?  I realize the farm is holy ground to some of you and any critique of it bring out the inner zealot but the fact is the fact, we fell back this year and also have mode no strides at the ML level.  We have our work cut out for us this off season if we are to be anything more than an indefinite 500 ballclub. 

I'm going to stay neutral on the main part of this conversation, but I've got to say something about this particular point. I understand that from a standings perspective, the club hasn't progressed much. However, you can't really definitively state that until the season is over. As of now they are 2 games over .500 despite dropping 5 of 7 to admittedly terrible teams. That is an improvement from last year. Despite having their best starting pitcher and reliever out for the season from Tommy John. They then tragically lost their second best pitcher.  

Going into the season, we were unsure about Calhoun. We figured Fletcher would be a solid utility player, but ultimately didn't know who would fill in for 2B and 3B long term. Cozart was a cross-your-fingers-and-hope-for-the-best guy.  Now we have seen Fletcher, Rengifo, and Thaiss come up from the farm and make an impact at the major league club. Calhoun has more or less righted the ship. On top of that, Canning has looked very solid despite his expected growing pains. 

Going into next season, the Angels no longer seem to have any real holes in their starting position players. This is a HUGE improvement over last season. The starting pitching was already an issue and this year was always a stop gap year because of the weak FA SP market and the Ohtani injury.  Going into next season the Angels need to just focus on starting pitching and maybe grab a reliever. This time last season we were talking about needing starting pitching, relievers, 2B, 3B, and RF. The amount of holes was insurmountable in just a season.

The Angels have definitely improved. They have a top 10 offense in baseball (top 5 in the AL) and they've done it mostly by adding from their farm in addition to grabbing Goodwin and LaStella.  I just don't see how you can look at this team and say they haven't improved.

 

[Hubs]

17 hours ago, Troll Daddy said:

I don’t think anybody is complaining about not trading for Greinke. 

I am. We needed a front line starter, the package they gave up wasn't that great, and was one we'd easily have been able to match.

Now, we need two starters.

[Docwaukee]

6 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

Sure $14 million in excess value seems useful, but by those same calculations Mike Trout was providing like $80 million in excess value per season when he first came up. If Eppler is so good and the farm is so good then why don't we have like 5 more guys like that in the system?

that's just unrealistic is why.  

it takes 3-4 years for a prospect to find his was into mlb usually.  Sometimes up to 6 or 7 years for some of the super young intl and HS prospects.  We're already seeing contributions from the 2016 and 2017 draft.  You do realize that Canning is one of 2 or 3 starting pitchers from the 2017 draft actually contributing at the major league level?  out of the entire draft.  If a team gets 3 players to the majors from one draft, they have done very well.  You do also realize that baldoquin locked the Angels out of the intl side and when that went away Eppler grabbed two top intl prospects from the braves, Ohtani, and 4 others in the top 30 over the last couple years.  

He's not a magician.  He's made this org much stronger than it was despite some pretty long odds.  His next test will be picking the right free agents (as he's done poorly here so far) and who else he decides to give up assets for in trade.  

[Docwaukee]

2 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I am. We needed a front line starter, the package they gave up wasn't that great, and was one we'd easily have been able to match.

Now, we need two starters.

it was a ton for the privilege of taking on 50+ mil for 2 more years of a 35 yo and the point of doing so for them was about making them stronger for THIS year more than 2 years from now.  Good move for them.  Would have been dumb for us.  

[eaterfan]

14 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Five more guys like Trout?  or like the guys that have already come up?   

Do you consider the guys that came up this year finished products?  Is that 14 mil in excess value all they will ever supply?

Are you capable of telling us the futures of the players drafted in 2017, 2018 and 2019 today?  If you can, then ill gladly tell you how good Eppler's work was and how good the farm system was.  You answer that question and I'll be better able to give you on opinion on yours, deal?

BTW, did you notice I included Barria, Eppler doesn't get credit for him..  He doesnt get credit for Fletcher either..  it's not about Eppler, it's about the farm infusing the MLB with value.

Sorry, I was being absurd to point out the unreasonable expectations of what some people think the farm needs to be in order to be successful. I thought the idea of 5 more Mike Trouts was out there enough that my intent would be obvious. But I guess the expectations are so absurd my comment sounded sincere.

[Glen]

9 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I am. We needed a front line starter, the package they gave up wasn't that great, and was one we'd easily have been able to match.

Now, we need two starters.

Please, point out what our matching package would have been.

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, eaterfan said:

Sorry, I was being absurd to point out the unreasonable expectations of what some people think the farm needs to be in order to be successful. I thought the idea of 5 more Mike Trouts was out there enough that my intent would be obvious. But I guess the expectations are so absurd my comment sounded sincere.

Ha, I actually thought that was possibly what you were doing but, given you tend to steer clear of hyperbole and the sort, I didn't want to ignore it if it was a legit question.   

[mulwin444]

8 minutes ago, Hubs said:

 we'd easily have been able to match.

Interesting...who would be our equivalent of two near MLB ready SPs, a LF/1B hitting .973 OPS in AA/AAA and a 2B hitting .978 OPS in AA/AAA while stealing 32 bases that we'd be able to easily sacrifice for one 36 year old starter whose salary would take us out of the Gerrit Cole market?

[eaterfan]

19 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Ha, I actually thought that was possibly what you were doing but, given you tend to steer clear of hyperbole and the sort, I didn't want to ignore it if it was a legit question.   

I just really can't see how fans can be disappointed with the direction the team has gone this year and a lot of it is because of the farm. The MLB team is clearly better than last year's despite worse health. Yes, last year Trout missed time and he's been pretty healthy this year. Simmons and Ohtani were hurt last year, too. This year we've missed Simmons, Cozart, Upton, Ohtani, La Stella, and Skaggs for significant time and actually gotten better.

I'm not sold yet on Thaiss, but if he plays well for 2 more months I think it solves 1B. That means heading into the off-season literally the only needs the team will have will be catcher and pitching. Not bad for a club with what will likely be close to $45 million to spend. Compare it to 2-3 years ago when it was a hole everywhere except CF, RF, SS, LF (once we got Upton), and maybe 3 SPs. We've gone from cash strapped with 7-8 answers on the roster to spenders with 5-6 questions.

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, eaterfan said:

I just really can't see how fans can be disappointed with the direction the team has gone this year and a lot of it is because of the farm. The MLB team is clearly better than last year's despite worse health. Yes, last year Trout missed time and he's been pretty healthy this year. Simmons and Ohtani were hurt last year, too. This year we've missed Simmons, Cozart, Upton, Ohtani, La Stella, and Skaggs for significant time and actually gotten better.

I'm not sold yet on Thaiss, but if he plays well for 2 more months I think it solves 1B. That means heading into the off-season literally the only needs the team will have will be catcher and pitching. Not bad for a club with what will likely be close to $45 million to spend.

And Stassi saves them the 2-3 mil they need for the Maldonado type catcher that Eppler always seems to look for.

[eaterfan]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

And Stassi saves them the 2-3 mil they need for the Maldonado type catcher that Eppler always seems to look for.

What do you think the odds are that we don't sign any position players this off-season? If catcher and 1B are solved I can't see them signing anyone unless there is an unexpected trade. I don't see a better back up IF than Rengifo - when factoring in play, options, and salary - nor a better back up OF than Goodwin. All the starters are locked in. It really might be all pitchers this winter.

[Blarg]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

As far as your question goes...  Where are the low cost options?  

Fletcher
Rengifo
Canning
Barria
Suarez
Buttrey

When you think back there hasn't been a crop of kids come up and help the club, en mass, like this group and you need only to go back to mid season last year when Fletcher arrived. That's 7 players in a years time that are actually MLB players, not a bunch of guys getting a cup of coffee then fading back into obscurity. 

Adell will join this group in September. That will make 8 players from the minors giving major league production for the bare minimum salary next season and we haven't even factored in JC Ramirez returning. 

[Inside Pitch]

33 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

What do you think the odds are that we don't sign any position players this off-season? If catcher and 1B are solved I can't see them signing anyone unless there is an unexpected trade. I don't see a better back up IF than Rengifo - when factoring in play, options, and salary - nor a better back up OF than Goodwin. All the starters are locked in. It really might be all pitchers this winter.

You never know -- depends on what if any trades they make involving position players but I'd hope their focus would be to sign pitchers.

[Docwaukee]

10 minutes ago, Blarg said:

When you think back there hasn't been a crop of kids come up and help the club, en mass, like this group and you need only to go back to mid season last year when Fletcher arrived. That's 7 players in a years time that are actually MLB players, not a bunch of guys getting a cup of coffee then fading back into obscurity. 

Adell will join this group in September. That will make 8 players from the minors giving major league production for the bare minimum salary next season and we haven't even factored in JC Ramirez returning. 

and you can also include Ohtani, Taylor Cole, Noe, Pena, and Anderson.  I would also say that Thaiss could easily move into the original group that IP posted.  

Plus the low cost arb guys in middleton, goodwin, smith, stassi.  That's 15 of the 26 who could be at 10m total.  Even La Stella, Robles, Bedrosian won't be horribly out of line and Heaney likely won't get that big of a raise.  La Stella could see a decent jump but likely won't be more than about 4mil.  

the cup of coffee guys might end up being serviceable at some point as well.  At least one of them could.  Like Herm, Walsh, Ward, Briceno, Jewell, Peters

the path seems the most clear it's been for a long time.  A couple strong starters and maybe some pen help which could actually come internally if we get any semblance of fortune as it pertains to injury.  

[Docwaukee]

37 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

What do you think the odds are that we don't sign any position players this off-season? If catcher and 1B are solved I can't see them signing anyone unless there is an unexpected trade. I don't see a better back up IF than Rengifo - when factoring in play, options, and salary - nor a better back up OF than Goodwin. All the starters are locked in. It really might be all pitchers this winter.

I know you didn't ask me but I'll answer anyway.  

I think the lineup is already set for next year.  If they decide to trade from their MIF depth then they might bring in a solid bench type.  

[tdawg87]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Saving shit?  It's public history you dolt.. 

I know it pisses you off that I tend to remember what people say, but it's not my fault you like to say stupid things that can easily be re-posted for everyone to see.   Fact is you created a false narrative about the goal being a top 5 system -- it never has been and if anyone believes that then they are as dense and incapable of seeing the forest for the trees as you are.   I'm sorry it pains you that I chose to clear everyone else of being at fault for something that didn't actually happen but, you're the one that's full of shit. 

Stop being full of shit

If it's so obvious how is it you failed to see it?   How is it you don't see how they have actually graduated players that are helping them moving forward?
 

What the hell are you even trying to say.  What fallback are you talking about?  Im not trying to be evasive, I just don't know what it is you're referencing as a fallback.  If you're talking about FV rankings then, again... learn how they work.
 

Here you go again with the limp backhanded comments you would claim are personal attacks if they were aimed at you... Always the hyprocite.   Stop pretending you know what anyone else thinks -- you're barely capable of intelligently expressing yourself.   "Holy ground", "zealotry" -- lots of weak smack and no substance as usual.   Want me to post the 50K posts from you this offseason about them not spending enough?    

To say they MLB hasn't made strides is ignorant.  It ignores the ascent of multiple players who are in fact moving the needle in the right direction. 

Now maybe you can create another false narrative about how everyone has punted on 2020 too.

This season?  

Welp, you did it. You killed flop.

[eaterfan]

3 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I know you didn't ask me but I'll answer anyway.  

I think the lineup is already set for next year.  If they decide to trade from their MIF depth then they might bring in a solid bench type.  

If Thaiss is able to be a solid major leaguer the lineup versatility on this team will be top notch. Thaiss can play 1st and 3rd, Fletcher can play anywhere, Rengifo can play up the middle, La Stella can play 2nd and 3rd. You need more right handers in the lineup? Pujols at 1st, Fletcher and Rengifo in the infield. You need more lefties? Thaiss, La Stella and Rengifo. Plus in the outfield you can sub in Goodwin (LHB) for anyone coming in.

[mulwin444]

56 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Welp, you did it. You killed flop.

Well, he supplied his own rope, put it around his own neck and threw the other end over a tree branch...kind of hard not to push him off the stool at that point.

[beatlesrule]

12 hours ago, Sean-Regan said:

Clevinger is another one just thrown away for literally nothing. 

That one hurt but again, how many can we name? Where are all these good prospects that were traded away and went on to blossom into major league players that helped take their teams to the playoffs or win the World Series? My point it, most of these players traded away didn't amount to anything. The pretty bad drafting and refusing to take a season or 2 to sell and "tank" is what has hurt this team much more. Moreno's formula has proven it doesn't work yet once again, this deadline his team didn't do the right thing and sell. Kole could have gotten something. Cam, Noe etc could have brought back players to help for next year. Lucroy had interest. F it.

[mmc]

12 hours ago, beatlesrule said:

Who are all these great prospects that got traded away for bad players? We traded away Corbin but got Haren. I thought it was a steep price unless we resigned him. I was very against trading away Segura even if we resigned Greinke. Losing Randal was just bad. I consider the trade for Simmons to be a good thing so I'm not counting losing Newcomb. I am trying to think of all these great prospects that have been good major leaguers and I can't think of many.  Which prospects if kept would be helping the team today. Do they win a World Series with Corbin and Segura? Would both players still be on the team? I did not look but can anyone here name all the prospects that were traded away and would they still be on the roster today or would have helped us win a World Series? Isn't it more on being bad at drafting?

Randal Grichuk is terrible.  Not a loss in the slightest.

[UndertheHalo]

5 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

Randal Grichuk is terrible.  Not a loss in the slightest.

He’s a major leaguer and the Angels absolutely could have used him ‘14-17

[beatlesrule]

The Angels needed to cash in on Cams good year. The Dodgers needed bullpen help. According to that trade machine thing, Cam could have gotten some of their prospects. Kole could definitely help a contender. Same with Lucroy. Eppler should have traded away some of this team and brought up some minor league guys to fill in their spots. The Angels should be "tanking" and going for a better draft pick. Once again, they have decided to dwell in mediocrity.

[Troll Daddy]

2 hours ago, mymerlincat said:

Randal Grichuk is terrible.  Not a loss in the slightest.

He’s no Trout but terrible is the wrong adjective