The Official 2017-2018 Hot Stove Thread

[jordan]

1 hour ago, disarcina said:

Has anyone signed (over-paid) for Darvish yet?

Back to the Dodgers?

Unless his signing demand drops way down (and if that happens, Dodgers re-sign him before it gets too low) Hope Halos stay far away.

Even when he was the proclaimed (not sure by who) 'cream of the crop' of last year's trade deadline starters -- I wasn't sold on the guy and am still not.

The W/S performances weren't exactly a surprise to some (like me and others here I 'm sure).

I think the Astros showing interest in Darvish is a positive sign that they feel he is better than his WS performance.  I think he could really help the team for the next 3 yr window.  

[Stradling]

Or any of these guys could say yes to the best offer on the table.  Hosmer has been offered over $100 million.  That is strictly based on age.  He’s not that good. Mous probably has or had that kind of offer from KC.  

I have no idea if the owners are becoming more responsible.  I just find it hard to believe they all became responsible at the very same time.  

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, floplag said:

So youre saying that Longorio and McCutcheon wont help them more than Pablo Sandoval and Jarret Parker and Gorkys Hernandez?  really?  

Their primary 3B last year was Nunez -- their primary CF was Denard Span.   If anything Parker is displacing Hernandez in LF full time -- which is what happened last year.   

The Giants problem last year had more to do with how awful their bench was and the way their rotation tanked without Madbum.   It's good they have moved to improve CF and 3B but their bench is basically the same or worse and right now their 4 and 5 starters will be whoever wins the competition among Ty Blach, Chris Stratton, and Tyler Beede...   They basically have a three man rotation right now and that's assuming Cueto's struggles last year were a hiccup and not a real sign of decline.  FWIW, most projections see a solid rebound for Cueto ...  so thats good for them.

The Giants can't be done..  they have a lot of work to do still

[totdprods]

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Their primary 3B last year was Nunez

Speaking of, more and more it's starting to feel like he may wind up being attainable for the last bench spot. 

[Inside Pitch]

27 minutes ago, OHTANILAND said:

That’s tough to prove. The owners are finally putting their foot down on those ridiculous Boras type contract demands. I thought Upton was very fortunate to get his new deal. He could still be sitting and waiting with Mouse and Hosmer.

The last two times it's happened the union argued that the collusion was primarily in how teams avoided signing other team's FAs...    They felt that the lack of competing offers drove the prices down...   I agree it's hard to point to any one thing as a sign of collusion but it's early still ..  It's going to be interesting to see if union lawyers will try to argue that the league wide attempt to get under the tax wasn't some form of collusion or that in holidng their money for next year, they are in effect colluding.  

I agree with you and others that are saying teams are smarter, but who knows how this could play out if it ever did go to court.  The Union is going to really have to have to take a long hard look at itself.

[Angel Oracle]

Borass getting screwed....it's about time, owners!

Fool has played all of you for far too long.    Time to stop it!   Just STOP it!

[Ohtaniland]

20 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

The last two times it's happened the union argued that the collusion was primarily in how teams avoided signing other team's FAs...    They felt that the lack of competing offers drove the prices down...   I agree it's hard to point to any one thing as a sign of collusion but it's early still ..  It's going to be interesting to see if union lawyers will try to argue that the league wide attempt to get under the tax wasn't some form of collusion or that in holidng their money for next year, they are in effect colluding.  

I agree with you and others that are saying teams are smarter, but who knows how this could play out if it ever did go to court.  The Union is going to really have to have to take a long hard look at itself.

They most certainly can sue for damages but the courts can’t force the owners to pay more to future free agents. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

40 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

The Union is going to really have to have to take a long hard look at itself.

This part. The union has sold out the youth in favor of veterans that don't provide much real value to clubs.

[Lou]

5 hours ago, nando714 said:

Anyone on the pirates worth trying to get ?

Kent Tekulve 

[Lou]

34 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Borass getting screwed....it's about time, owners!

Fool has played all of you for far too long.    Time to stop it!   Just STOP it!

Wait until the final contract is signed.

Scotty will get his

[Ohtaniland]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

Borass getting screwed....it's about time, owners!

Fool has played all of you for far too long.    Time to stop it!   Just STOP it!

We need to drain the swamp of these greedy agents. 

[Stradling]

Stop blaming Boras.  He works for the players.  If the players want to be signed by now they would.  

[Warfarin]

I think what's really happening is FOs are being run by smarter people now than before.  FOs are very analytically-inclined now and are much better at finding value.  They avoid signing the middle-tier type FAs, knowing they largely aren't worth it.  Do you really want to pay 10mil/yr for an "innings eater"?  No, that's ridiculous, it's probably not too hard to find a much cheaper player who can provide the same thing.

The star players will still get massive contracts.  This won't change.  Harper, Machado, Kershaw, etc will get paid, and paid quite well.  But all the middle tier players are going to start needing to accept lower contracts than they expected.

This is not collusion.  This is just smart business by FOs.

[greginpsca]

19 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

I think what's really happening is FOs are being run by smarter people now than before.  FOs are very analytically-inclined now and are much better at finding value.  They avoid signing the middle-tier type FAs, knowing they largely aren't worth it.  Do you really want to pay 10mil/yr for an "innings eater"?  No, that's ridiculous, it's probably not too hard to find a much cheaper player who can provide the same thing.

The star players will still get massive contracts.  This won't change.  Harper, Machado, Kershaw, etc will get paid, and paid quite well.  But all the middle tier players are going to start needing to accept lower contracts than they expected.

This is not collusion.  This is just smart business by FOs.

I think the luxury tax penalties have made a big impact. It appears teams front offices are doing every thing they can to stay under the limit. I believe that the Nationals, at the moment, are the only team to be over the limit.

[Warfarin]

1 minute ago, greginpsca said:

I think the luxury tax penalties have made a big impact. It appears teams front offices are doing every thing they can to stay under the limit. I believe that the Nationals, at the moment, are the only team to be over the limit.

The Red Sox are over the limit too, and with the Giants' acquisition of Cutch, they are all but guaranteed to join them shortly (currently about 5mil below, with more moves likely to follow).

[ten ocho recon scout]

19 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

This part. The union has sold out the youth in favor of veterans that don't provide much real value to clubs.

I agree, but im sure the selling point is telling the young guys theyll be old someday, too.

I pretty much side with the players over the owners, because the owners are making so much off of the players, but the players union isnt blameless either.

[Lou]

I side with the owners 

[Dtwncbad]

15 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

The last two times it's happened the union argued that the collusion was primarily in how teams avoided signing other team's FAs...    They felt that the lack of competing offers drove the prices down...   I agree it's hard to point to any one thing as a sign of collusion but it's early still ..  It's going to be interesting to see if union lawyers will try to argue that the league wide attempt to get under the tax wasn't some form of collusion or that in holidng their money for next year, they are in effect colluding.  

I agree with you and others that are saying teams are smarter, but who knows how this could play out if it ever did go to court.  The Union is going to really have to have to take a long hard look at itself.

That would prove the opposite.  If the luxury tax is "proven" to be the driving factor in holding back salaries, it would prove the owners were already paying the MAXIMUM amount they are allowed to pay without penalty.

If the Union wants to renegotiate where that luxury tax should be, that's fine.  But arguing the lux tax is some form of collusion would be ridiculous.

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

That would prove the opposite.  If the luxury tax is "proven" to be the driving factor in holding back salaries, it would prove the owners were already paying the MAXIMUM amount they are allowed to pay without penalty.

If the Union wants to renegotiate where that luxury tax should be, that's fine.  But arguing the lux tax is some form of collusion would be ridiculous.

You are jumping the gun and making an argument I didn't make.   

The CBA is the CBA, there isn't much that they would attempt to argue there but -- intent, good faith, etc etc.... they may try to worm their way through on those angles -- those areas can be somewhat nebulous and leave the door open for shenanigans.  I've not read the current CBA to make any definitive statements.   Anyway, as I said previously..  it's too early for them make any such claims but the argument wouldn't be that teams are actively working to avoid paying the tax, it would be that they agreed to do as a group to try to curb salaries on some level.   

In truth I don't care either way -- but it would make for some solid entertainment.

[stanick88]

36 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

You are jumping the gun and making an argument I didn't make.   

The CBA is the CBA, there isn't much that they would attempt to argue there but -- intent, good faith, etc etc.... they may try to worm their way through on those angles -- those areas can be somewhat nebulous and leave the door open for shenanigans.  I've not read the current CBA to make any definitive statements.   Anyway, as I said previously..  it's too early for them make any such claims but the argument wouldn't be that teams are actively working to avoid paying the tax, it would be that they agreed to do as a group to try to curb salaries on some level.   

In truth I don't care either way -- but it would make for some solid entertainment.

So in other words...... the owners are conspiring to follow the rules and guidelines set forth and agreed upon in the collective bargaining Agreement? 

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, stanick88 said:

So in other words...... the owners are conspiring to follow the rules and guidelines set forth and agreed upon in the collective bargaining Agreement? 

What rules?  It isn’t a rule to stay below the luxury tax?  There is a tax if you go over it.  

[stanick88]

10 minutes ago, Stradling said:

What rules?  It isn’t a rule to stay below the luxury tax?  There is a tax if you go over it.  

Yet it is still a rule. The rule is, that if you cross the luxury tax line (competitive  balance tax) you have to pay a penalty tax. There are parameters set that help guide you through the rules (guidelines). Part of these parameters are the actual tax threshold and the penalties set for those that cross the luxury tax line. It is agreeded upon in the collective bargaining agreements by the owners and players association  

 

just like law are rules, and if you break a law(rule) there are penalties. And usually guidelines or fee/penalty schedules to tell you what those fees/penalties are. 

[VariousCrap]

I think it is good that the owners are being smarter with their money.  The spending has gotten crazy.  Even if some of these guys don't get the deals they were hoping for, they are still going to get a ton.

[AngelsLakersFan]

12 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I agree, but im sure the sellingpoint is telling the young giys theyll be old someday, too.

I pretty much side with rhe players over the owners, because the owners are making so much off of the players, but the players union isnt blameless either.

Not all young players turn into old players. 

Right now just a handful of guys are making crazy money, while everyone else is just well paid. It would be nice to see players compensation tied more directly to their actual value, rather than the current situation where teams hoard cash until one player comes along and takes it all.

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

I think it is good that the owners are being smarter with their money.  The spending has gotten crazy.  Even if some of these guys don't get the deals they were hoping for, they are still going to get a ton.

I would like to see the system changed to where top flight free agents are getting significantly less, while quality young players are paid more in line with their current production. Payrolls can and would stay generally the same, but the share of that payroll would tend to go towards more productive players.