Looks Like Teams Have To Develop Their Own Pitching

[AngelsLakersFan]

Skaggs (traded twice, along with TJ alum Patrick Corbin the first time), Heaney (for just one season of Howie Kendrick), Tropiano (and Perez for a backup / now AAA catcher).

Some times when a trade is too good to be true, it's too good to be true. Stats bare out that players changing teams tend to under perform compared to projections. It's hard not to look back at these trades and not think part of the reason we got these pitchers in the first place was because their original teams worried about injury. 

It would seem to indicate that acquiring pitchers through trades is probably a high risk move.

[Oz27]

Pitchers generally are just high risk, no matter how you get them. But I do agree that acquiring pitchers is a risky thing to do. I'm a big believer that the best way to win is to constantly have young, cheap cost-controlled pitching coming through your minor league system and to have lots of it. I hope we'll employ a real focus on drafting a heap of starters in the coming years and acquiring as many as we can through any trades we make this month.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

That is the formula that the Braves used before going on their run of 14 straight division titles. They stockpiled young pitching for years, had solid staff in the minors to develop them, and a lot of those guys formed the core of their championship teams.

[TroutCron]

Maddox was a free agent and Smoltz was acquired from Detroit for Doyle Alexander. 

I do, however, agree that the best way to consistently win is through player development. 

7 minutes ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

That is the formula that the Braves used before going on their run of 14 straight division titles. They stockpiled young pitching for years, had solid staff in the minors to develop them, and a lot of those guys formed the core of their championship teams.

 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Steve Avery, Tom Glavine, Mike Stanton for a few. John Smoltz was a AA pitcher with unremarkable numbers when he was acquired from Detroit, but Atlanta scouts saw something in him. Closer Mark Wohlers was another.

The Braves were already two years into their run of division titles when Greg Maddux was signed.

[eaterfan]

8 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Skaggs (traded twice, along with TJ alum Patrick Corbin the first time), Heaney (for just one season of Howie Kendrick), Tropiano (and Perez for a backup / now AAA catcher).

Some times when a trade is too good to be true, it's too good to be true. Stats bare out that players changing teams tend to under perform compared to projections. It's hard not to look back at these trades and not think part of the reason we got these pitchers in the first place was because their original teams worried about injury. 

It would seem to indicate that acquiring pitchers through trades is probably a high risk move.

How about when the Cubs developed Prior and Wood? Or how about Matt Harvey with the Mets now? Sometimes pitchers get hurt or underperform no matter if they signed as FA, traded for, or stayed with one team.

[Angel Oracle]

The Braves model seemed to work real well for two decades.

[ettin]

In the first three years of Dipoto's tenure this WAS our philosophy.

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 hours ago, eaterfan said:

How about when the Cubs developed Prior and Wood? Or how about Matt Harvey with the Mets now? Sometimes pitchers get hurt or underperform no matter if they signed as FA, traded for, or stayed with one team.

There is a saying, "there is no such thing as a pitching prospect." Pitching is inherently risky, but I have to think it's more risky when you are acquiring guys other teams are willing to let go.

[eaterfan]

9 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

There is a saying, "there is no such thing as a pitching prospect." Pitching is inherently risky, but I have to think it's more risky when you are acquiring guys other teams are willing to let go.

The Cubs rotation seems to be doing okay with a lot of guys they didn't draft or sign internationally. Is there any data or analysis of homegrown v. obtained pitching or are we just going to go through anecdotal examples and think we're right.

BTW, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'd actually prefer if the Angels developed more players and focused on that. I think it's much more cost effective and allows for greater flexibility. I just don't know that it's true. 

[Second Base]

1. There's no way anyone could have predicted Heaney's injury. His arm action is perhaps the smoothest, easiest, cleanest motion I've ever seen from a lefty. If you're going to teach a left handed child to pitch, you teach him to use Heaney's motion. This injury was absolutely shocking.

2. Richards, a guy with his stuff and delivery, if he was going to need surgery, you'd think it would've happened back in college. 

3. Tropeano and Skaggs both have an average delivery. Not completely clean, but also not a Joel Zumaya, exploding elbow type of release. It could go either way with them, it just so happened they got injured. Oh well.

From all the research so far, we can only conclusively prove one thing: some people have ligaments that can withstand the violent motion attached to pitching, and some people don't. Nolan Ryan did, Mark Prior didn't.

[AngelsLakersFan]

29 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

The Cubs rotation seems to be doing okay with a lot of guys they didn't draft or sign internationally. Is there any data or analysis of homegrown v. obtained pitching or are we just going to go through anecdotal examples and think we're right.

BTW, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'd actually prefer if the Angels developed more players and focused on that. I think it's much more cost effective and allows for greater flexibility. I just don't know that it's true. 

I have not seen research on pitching, but there has been some on players in general. Players who change teams as a group do not meet their projections.

[Mark68]

Haters gonna hate...

Pitchers gonna arms fall off.

It's the Circle of Life. Hakuna Matata.

[California Cajun]

Hopefully it can be figured out what causes debilitating pitching injuries.   Bob Feller started throwing a curve ball at Age 8 and learned he could do it without injury by exercising his triceps. 

There has to be come common sense solution to rotator cuff and Tommy John surgeries. 

I think pitchers are pressured into throwing hard, and guys like Whitey Ford and Greg Maddux were able to have Hall of Fame careers without great fastballs. 

[Taylor]

I think arm surgeons are colluding with little league coaches to produce young players who will need TJ surgery in their early 20s. 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

2 hours ago, ettin said:

In the first three years of Dipoto's tenure this WAS our philosophy.

You can't execute this model in three years. Atlanta stockpiled pitching while Bobby Cox was general manager, and then they took their lumps for 2-3 seasons as the youngsters became proficient major league pitchers. Tom Glavine was 7-17 with a 4.56 ERA in his first full year with the big club. Three years later he won 20 games. Not coincidentally, that was the year that the Braves' youth movement and focus on pitching came to full fruition, the worst-to-first club of 1991.

[DCAngelsFan]

Teams lock up their aces these days - so those who hit the market as FA's are generally not highly valued or are on the downslope of their careers.

So, yes, you have to develop your own pitching - it's a truism these days.  

Arte better take the money saved on Weaver and Nibbles and sign Otani (if posted) and any other useful international FA pitchers he can scrape up - or hope Sidd Finch or Steve Nebraska comes to an open try-out - 'cause there's really not much going to be available to acquire ...

 

[Second Base]

It might be simply that TJ surgery is more prevalent now because guys are throwing the ball harder and it's taking a toll on the body. Throwing 300 innings a year at 80 mph is something ligaments can handle. Throwing 200 innings a year at 95 mph might be harder.

I really don't know other than to say some guys can handle the wear and tear, and others can't. It's just the way we're designed.

[DCAngelsFan]

Probably a bit of selection bias, too - guys who tore their ligaments pre-TJ surgery just quietly went away, careers over - there was nothing to count.

 

[ettin]

1 hour ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

You can't execute this model in three years. Atlanta stockpiled pitching while Bobby Cox was general manager, and then they took their lumps for 2-3 seasons as the youngsters became proficient major league pitchers. Tom Glavine was 7-17 with a 4.56 ERA in his first full year with the big club. Three years later he won 20 games. Not coincidentally, that was the year that the Braves' youth movement and focus on pitching came to full fruition, the worst-to-first club of 1991.

I wasn't talking about the execution, just the general philosophy of drafting pitchers V.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

The problem is that if the organization isn't patient, you don't realize the fruits of the approach. This organization isn't. Rebuilding "isn't in our DNA", according to our current GM. Sooner or later, someone is going to have to make a commitment to rebuild the farm system. Without that, there will not be sustained success. The Yankees are falling to earth because of the same approach - years of neglecting the farm and trying to fill the major league roster through free agency - although they were a more extreme case.

[HaloNArizona]

I read prior to Skagg's TJ surgery, the Angels had two players from 2003-2013 who required TJ Surgery will they were Angels.  I think the Angels are pretty careful with their pitchers.

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 hours ago, HaloNArizona said:

I read prior to Skagg's TJ surgery, the Angels had two players from 2003-2013 who required TJ Surgery will they were Angels.  I think the Angels are pretty careful with their pitchers.

I think it's interesting that the Angels traded away both Skaggs and Corbin, two pitchers who ended up needing TJ. 

[Inside Pitch]

I think the real issue is that you can never have too many pitchers and that pitching depth is an illusion. 

[Tank]

9 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I think the real issue is that you can never have too many pitchers and that pitching depth is an illusion. 

this would have been a good thread for bads85 to chime in on.