AJ

[Adam]

What will your taxable income be for 2015?

[Stradling]

I think capital gains tax is probably the least American tax there is.

[Angelsjunky]

And here I thought you were going to apologize for some of the shit you've said to me. But instead this is just another one of your lame attempts to harass and humiliate me, and get your buddies to gang up. And so your school-yard antics continue.

 

But to answer your question, it doesn't matter. My view would be the same regardless of what I make. I think the more you make, the higher your tax rate should be.

[Blarg]

Actually, it does matter depending upon what you make, believe me, it really does. Because when you have a pack rat wife that has kept every tax form and every bank statement since we've been married and look back at yearly income takes and what the government claimed was theirs you realize just how much has changed. How much of my income I never see, how much I  see wasted by my representatives.

[Angelsjunky]

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "it doesn't matter," notti. I meant that it doesn't matter what *I* make - my view would be the same regardless of whether I'm unemployed or in the 1% or (as is the case) somewhere in-between.

 

There's a fallacy out there that rich people don't think they should be taxed more than poor people. Some, many, even most might believe that, but some don't.

[nate]

Yeah but you seem to be ok with how much the middle class is taxed right now too, even though the middle class is what best represents America.

[Angelsjunky]

Nate, I haven't said anything with how I feel about the middle class taxation. I've been focusing on the very wealthy. But I don't think we can separate taxes from salaries and cost of living - they're all of a piece. Higher taxes wouldn't be such a problem if the cost of living was cheaper or salaries were higher. Or vice versa, really.

[Spirit]

Because if we raise salaries, the cost of goods, services and rents would surely stay flat.  There would be no increases there, so everything would be fixed! 

 

Right?

[nate]

Cost of living is high because the population is too high.

 

Another reason to completely shut down immigration.

 

Like I said, I shouldn't be paying 28% of my salary to the fed and another 6% to the state so some McDonalds workers can collect food stamps or some deadbeat can collect unemployment for a year.

 

I also don't think I should be paying for a huge military that is acting like the worlds police in the middle east.

 

Basically, I think that the top earners pay enough taxes, the middle class pays too much.  I also think that the lower class gets way too many benefits for being lazy and unemployable.

[Angelsjunky]

Because if we raise salaries, the cost of goods, services and rents would surely stay flat.  There would be no increases there, so everything would be fixed! 

 

Right?

 

Clearly salaries leads to increases in costs - but again, I'm not talking about magically creating money but redistributing it. Costs rise because the wealthy want to maintain profit margins. This, of course, is the problem with the minimum wage. An increase in the minimum wage would have to be offset with other restrictions. The point being, we need to lower the ceiling as we raise the floor. Yes, I know, sounds like the evil "S" word!

 

But what's your solution, Geoff? How do you think we should decrease poverty and strengthen the middle class? Or do you not care? I'm honestly curious.

 

Cost of living is high because the population is too high.

 

Another reason to completely shut down immigration.

 

Like I said, I shouldn't be paying 28% of my salary to the fed and another 6% to the state so some McDonalds workers can collect food stamps or some deadbeat can collect unemployment for a year.

 

I also don't think I should be paying for a huge military that is acting like the worlds police in the middle east.

 

Basically, I think that the top earners pay enough taxes, the middle class pays too much.  I also think that the lower class gets way too many benefits for being lazy and unemployable.

 

I'm stumped on how population and cost of living relate - can you explain? (I'm not being facetious, I honestly don't know).

 

So if you think taxes should be reduced, what do we do about our crumbling infrastructure? Are you OK with the fact that US is now decades behind much of Western Europe, South Korea, and Japan in terms of quality of services, transportation systems, high speed internet, etc. What about the exorbitant cost of health care?

 

But I agree with you on the military, no issues there.

 

I personally would reduce the military budget, reduce corporate tax breaks, increase taxes on the top 20% in an increasing curve. I would then re-allocate those funds to abolish Obamacare and replace it with a single-payer system--basically free health care for all--and improve infrastructure, education, etc.

[nate]

Supply and demand.  Remember it is about simplicity.  When the demand outweighs the supply then the cost goes up.  Housing, goods & services, etc.  Not to mention the tax rates and regulations on the businesses that provide those goods and services are insanely high so they are passing those costs on to the consumer.

 

The top 20% includes a huge chunk of the middle class that spend their money on goods and services.

 

Poor people should struggle, that is what happens when you are poor.  If you are poor you shouldn't have high speed internet, or a cell phone, or be able to purchase alcohol, booze, etc.  You should have a small apartment, ride the bus, buy food from the local grocery store, and spend your free time trying to get a better job or get a second job.

[Blarg]

AJ have you ever looked at turn of the century pictures of busy downtown city streets, full of banners, marquees, billboards and signs of what looks to be very successful businesses? Then you realize none of them exist anymore, family owned, corporate owned, all gone because somewhere along the line they didn't maintain a profit margin that was sustainable through inflation, retooling, even just plain being an obsolete commodity.

Profits are not evil.

[Spirit]

The opportunities available to the poor in this country are vast.  There is a way out of poverty, but it involves a lot of hard work.  A lot!!!  

 

Is it fair?  No.  But life is not fair.  For any of us.

 

I'll continue to give to and volunteer charities that support the poor.  And I totally understand that there are those few that fall into a special class that will never be able to take care of themselves due to physical or mental handicaps.  But at some point, everyone has to own their lives and their futures. 

[Adam]

The opportunities available to the poor in this country are vast.  There is a way out of poverty, but it involves a lot of hard work.  A lot!!!  

 

Is it fair?  No.  But life is not fair.  For any of us.

 

I'll continue to give to and volunteer charities that support the poor.  And I totally understand that there are those few that fall into a special class that will never be able to take care of themselves due to physical or mental handicaps.  But at some point, everyone has to own their lives and their futures. 

 

Could you be more evil?

[Spirit]

Could you be more evil?

 

 

Probably.  But it will take a lot of hard work and perseverance.  

[Angelsjunky]

Supply and demand.  Remember it is about simplicity.  When the demand outweighs the supply then the cost goes up.  Housing, goods & services, etc.  Not to mention the tax rates and regulations on the businesses that provide those goods and services are insanely high so they are passing those costs on to the consumer.

 

The top 20% includes a huge chunk of the middle class that spend their money on goods and services.

 

Poor people should struggle, that is what happens when you are poor.  If you are poor you shouldn't have high speed internet, or a cell phone, or be able to purchase alcohol, booze, etc.  You should have a small apartment, ride the bus, buy food from the local grocery store, and spend your free time trying to get a better job or get a second job.

 

I don't see it as that simple. I mean, I hear what you are saying here - but there are other factors. For example, more people should theoretically not only increase demand but supply, right? More people = more demand = more stuff to make and do = more jobs to make and do it. So we have other problems that reduce the number of these jobs, like out-sourcing (because big corporations want to increase profit margins) and mechanization.

 

As for poor people, I can't disagree with you except to say that some of the things you mention - namely internet (which is virtually free or very cheap in the rest of the world, and hugely overpriced because of corporate monopolies in this country) - are pretty much a necessity in today's world.

 

AJ have you ever looked at turn of the century pictures of busy downtown city streets, full of banners, marquees, billboards and signs of what looks to be very successful businesses? Then you realize none of them exist anymore, family owned, corporate owned, all gone because somewhere along the line they didn't maintain a profit margin that was sustainable through inflation, retooling, even just plain being an obsolete commodity.

Profits are not evil.

 

Turn of which century?

 

Anyhow, I don't have a problem with profit. This isn't black or white, as some seem to think (e.g. laissez-faire capitalism vs. communist socialism). The problem, as I see it, is the DEGREE of profit, and the fact that the rich keep on getting richer.

 

Our current system works great for the wealthy, pretty good for the upper middle class, but not so good for the lower middle class or poor. The problem is that the poorer you are, the harder it is to get out of it. Some of the social programs that Western European countries have--like free health care, maternity (and paternity) leave, and free or cheap education--would go a long way to improving that.

[Angelsjunky]

The opportunities available to the poor in this country are vast.  There is a way out of poverty, but it involves a lot of hard work.  A lot!!!  

 

Is it fair?  No.  But life is not fair.  For any of us.

 

I'll continue to give to and volunteer charities that support the poor.  And I totally understand that there are those few that fall into a special class that will never be able to take care of themselves due to physical or mental handicaps.  But at some point, everyone has to own their lives and their futures. 

 

I agree - in principle (especially your last sentence). But in reality there are many factors at play. Many poor people are poor because they are unwilling to work hard. But many are poor because they are sick or unwell or had bad luck, or have other circumstances - e.g. a divorce, a single parent, etc etc.

[Spirit]

I agree - in principle (especially your last sentence). But in reality there are many factors at play. Many poor people are poor because they are unwilling to work hard. But many are poor because they are sick or unwell or had bad luck, or have other circumstances - e.g. a divorce, a single parent, etc etc.

 

If someone is sick to the point of being unable to care for themselves and take care of their needs, I'm all for society taking care of them.  But that's such a small segment of the base of people we're talking about.  If you've run into some bad luck, or got divorced, or are a single parent, etc. then you need to get to work.  What's your plan for improving your circumstances?  There are plenty of organizations out there (both public and private) to help you out.  But they can't just take the fish, they need to learn how to fish. 

[wopphil]

If someone is sick to the point of being unable to care for themselves and take care of their needs, I'm all for society taking care of them. But that's such a small segment of the base of people we're talking about.

It is a small percentage in the eyes of reasonable-minded people, but many on the left are working tirelessly to expand the definition of disabled to include just about everyone. Again, it goes with their political goals - tell people they are victims and that you are the one who will give them what they are rightfully entitled to receive.

[Brandon]

Sounds simple and complex

[GrittyVeterans]

I don't see it as that simple. I mean, I hear what you are saying here - but there are other factors. For example, more people should theoretically not only increase demand but supply, right? More people = more demand = more stuff to make and do = more jobs to make and do it. So we have other problems that reduce the number of these jobs, like out-sourcing (because big corporations want to increase profit margins) and mechanization.

 

As for poor people, I can't disagree with you except to say that some of the things you mention - namely internet (which is virtually free or very cheap in the rest of the world, and hugely overpriced because of corporate monopolies in this country) - are pretty much a necessity in today's world.

 

 

Turn of which century?

 

Anyhow, I don't have a problem with profit. This isn't black or white, as some seem to think (e.g. laissez-faire capitalism vs. communist socialism). The problem, as I see it, is the DEGREE of profit, and the fact that the rich keep on getting richer.

 

Our current system works great for the wealthy, pretty good for the upper middle class, but not so good for the lower middle class or poor. The problem is that the poorer you are, the harder it is to get out of it. Some of the social programs that Western European countries have--like free health care, maternity (and paternity) leave, and free or cheap education--would go a long way to improving that.

 

No, that doesn't help people get out of poverty. That helps you be content being poor because someone else  is paying for your shit

 

Free education would water down a college degree so much that it would hardly be worth it. Also would increase taxes on the middle class. Not sure how that is a solution to anything

Edited December 22, 2015 by GrittyVeterans

[GrittyVeterans]

I'm for making universities lower their prices. Tuition is out of control in the last 5-10 years.

 

Making it free will never work. Community college, maybe but that's not that expensive anyway right now (and their is financial aid/payment plans).

 

Making universities free will just boost the amount of riff-raff attending. I'm taking on student loans next year after attending community college for two years. I'm paying my own way and it is very do-able for anyone if you're not a lazy piece of shit. If you're willing to grind 35 hours a week at work and put in the effort for two years at a community college in order to transfer, you can get out w/ a bachelor's with 10-12K student loans. Which is not that daunting but does need to be lowered

 

The kids that want to go out of state right out of high school are the people that need to have their heads examined. Paying 50 thousand dollars for the first two years of general lower division courses is just absurd these days.  But "they get the full college experience"...yeah, have fun making payments for 10 years after you graduate

[ten ocho recon scout]

I think capital gains tax is probably the least American tax there is.

agreed. That one blows me away, as does the death tax.

If you spend over a certain amount on ebay you pay taxes too. Bought myself a christmas gift this year and paid like 100 in taxes on ebay...the place where people (not a business) sell something to other people (not a business). Why should that be taxed?

[Angelsjunky]

For the most part I'm an observer of your exchanges with other posters on here and I've noticed that you insult and mock people pretty regularly. I don't know why you feel entitled to an apology from anyone.

 

I'm REALLY tired of this discussion, but this is patently not true - and points to the double-standard that goes on in this forum. The reason it seems like I insult and mock people pretty regularly is simply and only because whenever I say anything at all inflammatory, a big stink is raised by the usual suspects so it stands out more. My level of insulting and mockery is relatively mild compared to some of the regulars here. The reason a big stink is raised is because I've mocked certain groups - namely Libertarians, fundamentalists, and Fox News watchers - that certain regulars identify with or feel allegiance to. So they got upset and now are "out to get me," no matter what I say.

 

I rarely insult people. I do make critical remarks about, even make fun of, various ideologies and groups of people, but I rarely insult individuals. There is a big difference.

[juansavage1]

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "it doesn't matter," notti. I meant that it doesn't matter what *I* make - my view would be the same regardless of whether I'm unemployed or in the 1% or (as is the case) somewhere in-between.

There's a fallacy out there that rich people don't think they should be taxed more than poor people. Some, many, even most might believe that, but some don't.

Although AJ is probably a communist, he's correct. This is ideology, not self interest. It's like how some cute girls become nuns or otherwise refrain from having sex or become feminists/lesbians, not just the ugly ones.

There are in fact many very rich people who vote for higher taxes. Beverly Hills only elects democrats.