Byung-Ho Park

[Cdaniel]

Looks like the Twins won the bid. If they end up signing him that would make Plouffe even more available. Looks like they would want a mid rotation arm for him. Who would you trade, Santiago?

[greginpsca]

I proposed this a few weeks back.

[marcosantinia12]

I don't think I give up Santiago for Plouffe. He has only hit above league average twice in 5 seasons ( I wont count his 22 games in 2010). Other than his homeruns his numbers are pretty mehhh, and even those should drop in Aneheim. I'd rather go with Kubiza/Cowart than to give up Santiago for him.

Believe it or not, Santiago has value. ERA consistently in the 3's and he is controlled at a fairly cheap salary. He is not the type to net you all-star talent, but certainly above replacement level. I would much rather going for a Prado, Yunel Escobar, or maybe even Solarte from SD if there was a match somehow. If the Piates would entertain the idea of moving Walker in a deal centered around Santiago that could work as well. 

With that being said, I think Plouffe is decent. I think he is a guy that fills a void, but nothing else. I don't think he plays much of an impact in the lineup. He would essentially be a lesser version of Freese and if you can get him for cheap (not Santiago) then sure, its an idea worth exploring. 

[halosfan1970]

I think Plouffe is solid as a 3rd baseman, but why make this trade? Sign Freese to a reasonable three year deal. Use Santiago as a trade chip for value somewhere else. More overall value obtained.

[nikkachez]

I think Plouffe is solid as a 3rd baseman, but why make this trade? Sign Freese to a reasonable three year deal. Use Santiago as a trade chip for value somewhere else. More overall value obtained.

Eh, a league average 32-year old third baseman who's already got no range at third and will only get worse with age is a bad idea.

[floplag]

why are people so quick to trade all this pitching we just acquired in the last 1-2 years?  ive literally seen almost every SP we have in these trade talks and while simultaneously suggesting we sign more pitching. 
We have a good, deep starting staff right now... i get perhaps wanting a true ace but as to the rest... i dont get it.

Edited November 9, 2015 by floplag

[laagamer]

Damn, that's a lot of money. 

[Angel Oracle]

Plouffe's OBP has been over .309 only once in his career.

We need to stop bringing in low OBP guys.

 

Cowart may well work out eventually to be at the worst just a step below Plouffe, but bring a better glove/range to 3B.

[halosfan1970]

Eh, a league average 32-year old third baseman who's already got no range at third and will only get worse with age is a bad idea.

 

Yes, Freese is 32. Plouffe is 29. Plouffe has two years of control remaining. Those two years of arbitration are estimated at $8m and $11m. What's a fair estimate for Freese in FA - 3/30 or 3/33?

 

Offensively -- Plouffe has the higher Slugging %, but Freese hits for a higher BA and OBP. They are both about 2.5 WAR players. They are both about 105 OPS+ (over last two years.)

 

Defensively -- Plouffe is an improvement in the field. He clearly derives more of his WAR from defense than Freese. 

 

So, I feel a trade of Santiago should net greater value than a mild improvement of defense at 3rd base for two years.

[marcosantinia12]

why are people so quick to trade all this pitching we just acquired in the last 1-2 years?  ive literally seen almost every SP we have in these trade talks and while simultaneously suggesting we sign more pitching. 

We have a good, deep starting staff right now... i get perhaps wanting a true ace but as to the rest... i dont get it.

As of right now, we have 8 starters. Depth is good, but you cant just let the value of the 3 excess pichers die in the minors. Shoemaker is the perfect depth piece because his value will never really be too high in the market. He  can pitch in AAA or in the pen and take over for a starter in the case of injury/struggles. Weaver is staying in the rotation, whether we like it or not. So will CJ, Richards, Heaney, and Santiago assuming we keep him. This means that that Shoe, Trop, and Skaggs are left out. Like I said, I'm ok with Shoemaker not in the rotation, but not Tropeano and definitely not Skags who have upsides to be very good contributions to our SP. 

I see what you're saying, but the pitching depth we acquired wasn't because we needed more pitchers neccessarily. It was because we need cost-controlled replacements for Weaver and CJ. 

We are at a great position where we have options. We can't keep all of these guys, because even next year when CJ and Weaver walk, Chris Ellis and Nate Smith will be ready. Oh and that Newcomb kid. This gives us the flexibility to trade for our other needs. You don't trade a Newcomb though, or a Richards, and unless you get a substantial return, you don't trade Heaney. Ellis and Smith are more valuable to our teams because of their upside and low market value. This leaves us with Santiago, Shoe, and Tropeano as our trade options. Scratch Shoe because of the reasons I mentioned (perfect depth guy). This leaves a guy with potential to be a solid 4-5 in Tropeano who has 5 years of control, or Santiago who has "all-star" on his resume and has only 2 years left of control. Santiago nets you a greater return, and  he is more expendable than a guy in long-term team control.  

[Angel Oracle]

I would wait to trade any excess beyond Santiago for another year, and see how the progression is for the other young pitchers.

Focus more on FAs this off-season, since the next off-season will be mostly a crapshoot for FAs at which point a trade will help more.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Angel Oracle

[marcosantinia12]

 

So, I feel a trade of Santiago should net greater value than a mild improvement of defense at 3rd base for two years.

Couldn't have put it any better. I don't think we should sign Freese either though. I think that 10 mil per can be used a lot more efficiently. Lets trade Santiago for 3B help, just not Plouffe. If it doesn't happen, our worst case scenario is Kubitza/Cowart at third and I'm ok with that. I don't think they are a huge drop off from Freese and definitely not Plouffe. 

[Cdaniel]

Couldn't have put it any better. I don't think we should sign Freese either though. I think that 10 mil per can be used a lot more efficiently. Lets trade Santiago for 3B help, just not Plouffe. If it doesn't happen, our worst case scenario is Kubitza/Cowart at third and I'm ok with that. I don't think they are a huge drop off from Freese and definitely not Plouffe.

Who do we target for 3rd? Can Neil Walker play 3rd?

[gotbeer]

why are people so quick to trade all this pitching we just acquired in the last 1-2 years?  ive literally seen almost every SP we have in these trade talks and while simultaneously suggesting we sign more pitching. 

We have a good, deep starting staff right now... i get perhaps wanting a true ace but as to the rest... i dont get it.

 

 

It's so we can trade pitchers.  Then, during the season, complain that we don't have any depth at pitching.  Either that or complain that the person we traded for isn't any good.  Either way, it's a win win for AW.com.  

[gotbeer]

Also, I'd rather take a shot at Jae-Gyun Hwang if he gets posted.  

 

Report: Korean 3B Jae-Gyun Hwang asks to be posted this offseason

[Cdaniel]

We can trade pitching depth and still add a frontline starter like Cueto who doesn't cost a pick or if you don't feel like committing long term we could go after Fister.

[Angel Oracle]

Cueto worries me, not as much with his mediocre numbers for KC, as that somewhat violent delivery.     

[ukyah]

it's time people start believing that you need more than 5 quality starters to get to the world series, much less through a season. the fact is, contrary to what tv would have you believe, eight is not enough.

[marcosantinia12]

it's time people start believing that you need more than 5 quality starters to get to the world series, much less through a season. the fact is, contrary to what tv would have you believe, eight is not enough.

I hear you, just isn't efficient to carry 8 starters. Let's carry a decent SP staff that gets you through 6 innings, maybe even just 5 and create a lock down bullpen.

Edited November 9, 2015 by marcosantinia12

[halosfan1970]

it's time people start believing that you need more than 5 quality starters to get to the world series, much less through a season. the fact is, contrary to what tv would have you believe, eight is not enough.

 

I also agree that over 162 games, you need more than 5 legitimate starters. Organizational depth is important.

 

However, stashing pitchers like Skaggs and Tropeano in AAA as insurance can have negative impacts too. They aren't going to develop further at AAA, and you are still using their young/prime, controllable years.

[tdawg87]

I hear you, just isn't efficient to carry 8 starters. Let's carry a decent SP staff that gets you through 6 innings, maybe even just 5 and create a lock down bullpen.

 

Most teams do.

 

I think Scioscia himself said that most successful teams are 9 starting pitchers deep. Having that many starters is a blessing, not a problem.

 

Guys are going to get hurt. They are going to miss starts, and they are going to go on the DL for extended periods of time. That's why depth is so important.

[Angel Oracle]

And it's only essentially for one more season, and then Weave and Wilson are removed from the equation leaving Richards, Heaney, Santiago, Skaggs, Tropeano, Newcomb, Ellis, and Nate Smith.     Then Santiago could be traded for extra help elsewhere in a year, and then they still have 7 starters plus DeLoach.