Scioscia fighting a losing battle?

[Glen]

I thought this thread was gonna be about his weight.

Lasagna!

[ten ocho recon scout]

Something ive been thinking the last few days. Theres good discussion in another thread about some of us (like me) saying we want a power bat added, while others are saying we need more table setters. The latter group points at teams like KC and the giants, and how you can win it all with little power if you have guys that get on base and make things happen.

The irony, i think, is that the angels were a lot better off when they were constructed that way....and hence, sosh was considered a better manager because of it.

A lot of people blame sosh for the roster the last few years, but ive said it before, this team hasnt been a sosh team for a while. ANY manager in baseball would have giggled and absolutely said "hell yeah ill take albert pujols", so even if he greenlit that idea, he gets a pass because any one would. But other than that, where are the high average guy? Wheres the speed? I think the last FA he was all in on was probably Crawford.

Sosh, at least what we think, prefers that NL style offense and hasnt had it in years. Maybe thats the FO, but i think its probably more on arte.

[Stradling]

Something ive been thinking the last few days. Theres good discussion in another thread about some of us (like me) saying we want a power bat added, while others are saying we need more table setters. The latter group points at teams like KC and the giants, and how you can win it all with little power if you have guys that get on base and make things happen.

The irony, i think, is that the angels were a lot better off when they were constructed that way....and hence, sosh was considered a better manager because of it.

A lot of people blame sosh for the roster the last few years, but ive said it before, this team hasnt been a sosh team for a while. ANY manager in baseball would have giggled and absolutely said "hell yeah ill take albert pujols", so even if he greenlit that idea, he gets a pass because any one would. But other than that, where are the high average guy? Wheres the speed? I think the last FA he was all in on was probably Crawford.

Sosh, at least what we think, prefers that NL style offense and hasnt had it in years. Maybe thats the FO, but i think its probably more on arte.

I agree with this. Scioscia's team that won it all had power, a bit of speed and a bunch of good base runners. However I think his style of managing is best suited for athletic guys that get on base and push the action. This team was slow, one dimensional and couldn't get on base.

[eligrba]

Stradling,

 

Based on that response, what would be more efficient and effective?

1.  Rebuild the team to match the manager's style

2.  Replace the manager with one who is able to work with the raw materials provided.

 

I am still not clear how the Angels lost their way from maintaining a team that matched Scioscia's managing style.

Edited November 8, 2015 by eligrba

[Docwaukee]

I'm not saying that Scioscia isn't somewhat old school, but this article just states as fact that he doesn't embrace sabermetrics.  

 

An interesting question for someone:

 

If MS runs the franchise and doesn't look at sabermetrics, why would the front office bother having an entire metrics team?  Why would Arte waste the money?  

[marcosantinia12]

I'm not saying that Scioscia isn't somewhat old school, but this article just states as fact that he doesn't embrace sabermetrics.

An interesting question for someone:

If MS runs the franchise and doesn't look at sabermetrics, why would the front office bother having an entire metrics team? Why would Arte waste the money?

That's what the argument is. Nobody here can say 100% that Scioscia ignores any type of sabr numbers, but from his decisions, I'd find it hard to believe he really follows it.

Maybe Arte wants to put a team together that embraces both sides but is doing it wrong by hiring a SABR front office and old school management. As we all know, this is why Dipoto-Sciocia didn't work. He was constructing a team that needed to be managed a certain way, and it wasn't.

If indeed Arte wants a bit of both then OK. IMO this is ideal, although I strongly favor an analytical-based FO and management. He had to hire both a Front office and management/coaching with similar views that are open to both sides. Not a strongly sided FO and opposite management.

I think Scoscia is a good manager, whether I want him here is another story. Dipoto was also a bright GM. Problem is they couldn't work together because of their contrasting view points.

[Stradling]

Stradling,

Based on that response, what would be more efficient and effective?

1. Rebuild the team to match the manager's style

2. Replace the manager with one who is able to work with the raw materials provided.

I am still not clear how the Angels lost their way from maintaining a team that matched Scioscia's managing style.

More efficient would be to replace Scioscia obviously. Name a manager that takes this group of players and accomplishing anything. EVERY manager needs talent regardless of whether they use metrics or over perform compared to sabr predictions. He nearly led a team that was below average offensively and pitching to the playoffs, in a year when there was an incredible amount of distractions.

[eligrba]

All good points.

 

Thanks.

[Oz27]

Oh and it was analytics that got us the likes of Victorino and DeJesus. The analytics said platoon them and we will get somewhere between a .750-800 OPS.

What's that thing you say over and over again about Angels Win FACTS?

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Does anyone here question the value of someone who uses analytics and values scouting? To me it seems like the best of both worlds. As much as anyone here wants a manager to make every right decision, it's impossible, because players.

 

I never understood, why the author was apparently trying to make the point that scouting is a dying method of building an organization, when it seems pretty apparent that it isn't. The author categorized organizations as numbers based because he said that a GM "leaned" toward statistics, implying that if he uses numbers that he doesn't use scouting. Some things can't be quantified, and the eye test still has value.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Vegas Halo Fan

[Stradling]

I never understood, why the author was apparently trying to make the point that scouting is a dying method of building an organization, when it seems pretty apparent that it isn't. The author categorized organizations as numbers based because he said that a GM "leaned" toward statistics, implying that if he uses numbers that he doesn't use scouting. Some things can't be quantified, and the eye test still has value.

Exactly.

[Troll Daddy]

It's a misconception here about Scoscia ... if anything, he is over analytical to a fault imo. He needs to trust his instincts more on the field. Love or hate him ... he is still one of the great managers in the game.

Ned Yost led the team to the WS back to back ... I think he's a great manager but doubtful you all agree. Ron Washington also had two back to back appearances.

For me ... analytics belong in the FO not on the field. I think KC scouting department did a great job helping the manager/coaches and players in the playoffs.

[Angel Oracle]

Scouting is still a big question mark with this org.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

It's a misconception here about Scoscia ... if anything, he is over analytical to a fault imo. He needs to trust his instincts more on the field.

 

Except that this doesn't match observations of his managerial methods. Mainly speaking, his undying reliance on veterans who don't hit. He has repeatedly penciled names into the lineup of players who don't produce: Abreu, Wells, Mathis, Ibanez, Joyce...the list is long and distinguished. He seems to have it in his head that if they once produced that they will again, given enough playing time. Sometimes it's just over and it's time to accept that.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Scouting is still a big question mark with this org.

im doing my best

The official guys i cant comment on

[ten ocho recon scout]

Except that this doesn't match observations of his managerial methods. Mainly speaking, his undying reliance on veterans who don't hit. He has repeatedly penciled names into the lineup of players who don't produce: Abreu, Wells, Mathis, Ibanez, Joyce...the list is long and distinguished. He seems to have it in his head that if they once produced that they will again, given enough playing time. Sometimes it's just over and it's time to accept that.

and thats where i jump in on the critique. To be fair, theres been a ton of times we all wanted the young guy, and the young guy didnt produce (so the vet wasnt as bad as we perceive). But its happened way too many times where it killed us.

Steve freakin finley batting 5th...

[Troll Daddy]

Except that this doesn't match observations of his managerial methods. Mainly speaking, his undying reliance on veterans who don't hit. He has repeatedly penciled names into the lineup of players who don't produce: Abreu, Wells, Mathis, Ibanez, Joyce...the list is long and distinguished. He seems to have it in his head that if they once produced that they will again, given enough playing time. Sometimes it's just over and it's time to accept that.

You can say the same thing about any manager in the game when it come to veterans.

[arch stanton]

So a week after the Terry Collins-Ned Yost showdown we still want to pretend that we can decipher a manager's value and label it?

[Blarg]

Stradling,

 

Based on that response, what would be more efficient and effective?

1.  Rebuild the team to match the manager's style

2.  Replace the manager with one who is able to work with the raw materials provided.

 

I am still not clear how the Angels lost their way from maintaining a team that matched Scioscia's managing style.

 

Jesus isn't available.

[tomsred]

Jesus isn't available.

 

Dusty Baker was available, but fortunately we escaped that bullet.  Thank goodness the Nationals jumped up and were on the receiving end.

[Angel Oracle]

Just think of all the game balls the Nats starters will get upon exiting the game.

At least by now they won't have to worry about Baker's son getting in the way near the plate.

Has to be an adult by now.

[T.G.]

Something ive been thinking the last few days. Theres good discussion in another thread about some of us (like me) saying we want a power bat added, while others are saying we need more table setters. The latter group points at teams like KC and the giants, and how you can win it all with little power if you have guys that get on base and make things happen.

The irony, i think, is that the angels were a lot better off when they were constructed that way....and hence, sosh was considered a better manager because of it.

A lot of people blame sosh for the roster the last few years, but ive said it before, this team hasnt been a sosh team for a while. ANY manager in baseball would have giggled and absolutely said "hell yeah ill take albert pujols", so even if he greenlit that idea, he gets a pass because any one would. But other than that, where are the high average guy? Wheres the speed? I think the last FA he was all in on was probably Crawford.

Sosh, at least what we think, prefers that NL style offense and hasnt had it in years. Maybe thats the FO, but i think its probably more on arte.

 

 

I loved this post.  It's spot on.

[tomsred]

Just think of all the game balls the Nats starters will get upon exiting the game.

At least by now they won't have to worry about Baker's son getting in the way near the plate.

Has to be an adult by now.

 

But does his son still live at home, and is he any smarter than he used to be?  Sometimes kids develop slowly.

 

Edited November 9, 2015 by tomsred