we're in no way better than other countries

[Spirit]

Juan doth protest way too much. He's gotta be a closeted self-hating liberal.

 

 

As if there's any other kind. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

heyooooo...

[juansavage1]

The ME is a ton of different tribes that hate each other killing each other.  The only reason they care about us is because we keep occupying them for their oil.  There is no systematic elimination of a race or people.  It is civil war.  There are similar wars happening all over Africa.  Where is your outrage there?

There is a systematic destruction of non-Muslims by ISIS. Saddam tried to get rid of some people as well. The Ayatollah has promised to destroy Israel. I think Clinton should have done something about Rwanda. 

 

However, not wanting to get involved is not a dumb position. You either don't care or you don't think it's worth it or you don't think we can be effective. Perfectly reasonable positions. I think not confronting communism- IF YOU"RE NOT A COMMUNIST- is a dumb position since they wanted global domination. 

[UndertheHalo]

Israel is almost literally the definition of apartheid.

-the settlements

-the ID cards

-the required Jewish character of the state

-unequal infrastructure.

The list goes on and on and on. At least Nate is uniform in his opinions Juan. You're selective in your crusades, and since when are the Palestinians a "cool" cause in the United States. ? More manipulated BS to fit your silly uber conservative view points. And as a last point, ISIS has destroyed more Muslim lives then all the minorities combined by a factor of 10. Muslims that resist their psychotic twisted apocalyptic version of Islam(the vast majority) are apostates and despised more then any of the others.

Edited October 4, 2015 by UndertheHalo

[wopphil]

Does anyone think our forces deliberately targeted the hospital? Seems like a tragic incident, not a "war crime."

[juansavage1]

Israel is almost literally the definition of apartheid.

-the settlements

-the ID cards

-the required Jewish character of the state

-unequal infrastructure.

The list goes on and on and on. At least Nate is uniform in his opinions Juan. You're selective in your crusades, and since when are the Palestinians a "cool" cause in the United States. ? More manipulated BS to fit your silly uber conservative view points. And as a last point, ISIS has destroyed more Muslim lives then all the minorities combined by a factor of 10. Muslims that resist their psychotic twisted apocalyptic version of Islam(the vast majority) are apostates and despised more then any of the others.

Israel having apartheid is a liberal meme. It's not true, unless you want to call Japan and Sweden apartheid countries as well. 

 

It is true that the only Jewish state on earth would like to stay the only Jewish state on earth and protect itself from people who want to kill them. 

[UndertheHalo]

Last time I checked Japan and Sweden aren't aggressively and illegally (assuming you believe in any kind of international order) building settlements on occupied land thus displacing the native inhabitants (with out any kind of compensation)  in order to realize the vision of an enterprise whose entire modus operandi is racial in character (don't even get me started on the religious aspect of it).  Apartheid does not refer to a homogenous population.  It is a concept of systematic segregation in order to maintain minority rule.  The Africaaners in South Africa thought it a good method and thus the name.  So regardless of whether or not you think it is justified or appropriate, it is absolutely true that Israel employs strikingly similar methods.  Im not going to argue with you about the ethics of Zionism or the Israeli state.  But on that point of apartheid in the middle east I believe you are grossly wrong.

Edited October 4, 2015 by UndertheHalo

[Angelsjunky]

I'm guessing none of the libs here have ever heard of Pacifica radio until now

Juan doth protest way too much. He's gotta be a closeted self-hating liberal.

 

I've heard of Pacifica radio. It airs Amy Goodman's Democracy Now! program. Of course I'm probably a self-loathing pinko in Juan's eyes.

 

I was a liberal in college and I like political philosophy and history so I know a lot about this subject. Pacifica Radio supports communism. They play Cuban music every once in a while and I do remember 9/11 truther shows on the 9/11 anniversary. They also had famous communists on their banner a few years back. 

 

Ooh, Cuban music! Stalinesque.

 

By the way, just as many right-wing extremists are 9/11 truthers as left-wing extremists.

 

 

Howard Zinn does make factual errors and leaves things out, but what I don't like about him is his lack of perspective or, rather, his stridently communist perspective that makes what he writes essentially a lie. Let's say that I'm asked to write a history of Angelsjunky. I include when you stole a stapler from school, said something mean to Susie, lied to your parents about going with your friends, and was mean to a retarded kid. I don't mention that you're nice to your wife, have three sons who love you, or helped a co-worker through a hard time. I didn't mention that the stapler was confiscated from you or that the retarded kid spit in your face and you didn't know he was handicapped. 

 

Did I lie about you? Is that fair. One would correctly assume, upon learning the whole story that I must hate Angelsjunky or, at least, have an agenda to make him look bad. 

 

That's Howard Zinn, Chomsky, Ward Churchhill, and the whole lot of communist stooges. 

 

You misunderstand what Zinn was trying to do, especially re: People's History. He wasn't as much trying to present a comprehensive history of the United States, but bring in that which we tend to conveniently forget or ignore. As Mr Churchill famously said, "history is written by the victors." US history as is written in text books is extremely partial, even nationalistic. The fact that our culture still celebrates Christopher Columbus is a travesty.

 

US history is complex and multi-faceted. It includes many wonderful innovations, developments, and social transformations. It also includes the genocide of the Native American people, the enslavement and subjugation of Africans, the unnecessary use of atomic weapons on Japan, etc etc. Zinn focuses on the shadow stuff because most people don't realize its there, its been written out of history, ignored and suppressed.

[Glen]

Does anyone think our forces deliberately targeted the hospital? Seems like a tragic incident, not a "war crime."

Well shit, that makes it okay then. It was just a tragic incident.

[Amazing Larry]

Does anyone think our forces deliberately targeted the hospital? Seems like a tragic incident, not a "war crime."

Well we were given the coordinates of the hospital repeatedly up to 3 days before the bombing so we either struck it intentionally or we really suck at war.

[wopphil]

Then if we deliberately struck it, don't you two think that is an act worthy of the resignation of the commander in chief?

[juansavage1]

Last time I checked Japan and Sweden aren't aggressively and illegally (assuming you believe in any kind of international order) building settlements on occupied land thus displacing the native inhabitants (with out any kind of compensation)  in order to realize the vision of an enterprise whose entire modus operandi is racial in character (don't even get me started on the religious aspect of it).  Apartheid does not refer to a homogenous population.  It is a concept of systematic segregation in order to maintain minority rule.  The Africaaners in South Africa thought it a good method and thus the name.  So regardless of whether or not you think it is justified or appropriate, it is absolutely true that Israel employs strikingly similar methods.  Im not going to argue with you about the ethics of Zionism or the Israeli state.  But on that point of apartheid in the middle east I believe you are grossly wrong.

That's true. Japan hasn't built settlements in conquered territory since the 40s. However, many European countries have built settlements on land they took over from the Germans after WWII. Russians have built settlements on land they took over from Imperial Japan. China has built settlements in Tibet. 

 

Did blacks get to vote under apartheid? Because Arabs do in Israel. Is there any place an Arab can't go in Israel or a job they can't hold? Can they hold office or be part of the judiciary? I think when you make the apartheid claim, you should look at these differences, no? Except for Egypt, nobody among Israel's neighbors get to vote. Well, the Palestinians vote for terrorists. Japan gives preference to ethnically Japanese immigrants. 

[nate]

Israel is almost literally the definition of apartheid.

-the settlements

-the ID cards

-the required Jewish character of the state

-unequal infrastructure.

The list goes on and on and on. At least Nate is uniform in his opinions Juan. You're selective in your crusades, and since when are the Palestinians a "cool" cause in the United States. ? More manipulated BS to fit your silly uber conservative view points. And as a last point, ISIS has destroyed more Muslim lives then all the minorities combined by a factor of 10. Muslims that resist their psychotic twisted apocalyptic version of Islam(the vast majority) are apostates and despised more then any of the others.

 

more of this bullshit.  Israel is being attacked by Palestine daily.  Those cowardly pieces of human feces are doing everything they can to blow up innocent women and children.  I wish we would give Israel the go ahead to destroy everything in their wake but the international community is holding them back.  You're welcome.

[juansavage1]

I've heard of Pacifica radio. It airs Amy Goodman's Democracy Now! program. Of course I'm probably a self-loathing pinko in Juan's eyes.

 

 

Ooh, Cuban music! Stalinesque.

 

By the way, just as many right-wing extremists are 9/11 truthers as left-wing extremists.

 

 

 

You misunderstand what Zinn was trying to do, especially re: People's History. He wasn't as much trying to present a comprehensive history of the United States, but bring in that which we tend to conveniently forget or ignore. As Mr Churchill famously said, "history is written by the victors." US history as is written in text books is extremely partial, even nationalistic. The fact that our culture still celebrates Christopher Columbus is a travesty.

 

US history is complex and multi-faceted. It includes many wonderful innovations, developments, and social transformations. It also includes the genocide of the Native American people, the enslavement and subjugation of Africans, the unnecessary use of atomic weapons on Japan, etc etc. Zinn focuses on the shadow stuff because most people don't realize its there, its been written out of history, ignored and suppressed.

Zinn, what a service he was performing! The kind of history Zinn wrote was written many times before by countries like the Soviet Union. It's called a Marxist view of history. When you read the book, didn't you notice that everything was this group against the power of oppression and this force against that force. That's Marxism. Zinn was just a plain old Marxist and America-hating Marxist liked it just like anti-Catholic protestants would read this book. It's a hate book. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxe%27s_Book_of_Martyrs

[Angelsjunky]

more of this bullshit.  Israel is being attacked by Palestine daily.  Those cowardly pieces of human feces are doing everything they can to blow up innocent women and children.  I wish we would give Israel the go ahead to destroy everything in their wake but the international community is holding them back.  You're welcome.

 

Because an eye for an eye works out so well.

[Angelsjunky]

Zinn, what a service he was performing! The kind of history Zinn wrote was written many times before by countries like the Soviet Union. It's called a Marxist view of history. When you read the book, didn't you notice that everything was this group against the power of oppression and this force against that force. That's Marxism. Zinn was just a plain old Marxist and America-hating Marxist liked it just like anti-Catholic protestants would read this book. It's a hate book. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxe%27s_Book_of_Martyrs

 

You're doing exactly what you accuse Zinn of doing: taking a partial view that is solely negative.

 

And again, you don't actually address what I said but instead take every opportunity to rail against leftism, Marxism, socialism, atheism, etc. Do you agree or disagree that the "shadow side" of American history is under-emphasized by our textbooks, that we have selective memory? Or do you condone genocide, slavery, colonialism, war-mongering, nuclear attacks, etc?

 

Also, you speak of Marxism like its diabolical. I don't have that issue with it and see it as a valid, if partial, perspective.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Angelsjunky

[juansavage1]

That's true. Japan hasn't built settlements in conquered territory since the 40s. However, many European countries have built settlements on land they took over from the Germans after WWII. Russians have built settlements on land they took over from Imperial Japan. China has built settlements in Tibet. 

 

Did blacks get to vote under apartheid? Because Arabs do in Israel. Is there any place an Arab can't go in Israel or a job they can't hold? Can they hold office or be part of the judiciary? I think when you make the apartheid claim, you should look at these differences, no? Except for Egypt, nobody among Israel's neighbors get to vote. Well, the Palestinians vote for terrorists. Japan gives preference to ethnically Japanese immigrants. 

So, you should say, "Israel is just like apartheid, except that Arabs can vote, hold office, go anywhere they want, have the same civil recourse after having been harmed, travel, and are subject to the same laws. Besides that, it's apartheid."

[juansavage1]

You're doing exactly what you accuse Zinn of doing: taking a partial view that is solely negative.

 

Also, you speak of Marxism like its diabolical. I don't have that issue with it and see it as a valid, if partial, perspective.

The subject is hating America. You can find much of value in Zinn if you like (I personally find Marxism completely wrong, boring and predictable), but it's still a Marxist perspective of the US written by somebody who thinks that the US is evil. Why does he think the US is especially evil? Is it the only country that expanded its terrirtorry? No. Every country that exists exists because it expanded its territory. Has it treated people especially bad? No. The reason is that it has stood in the way of progress. That's why Marxists hate America. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Juan Savage

[juansavage1]

Then if we deliberately struck it, don't you two think that is an act worthy of the resignation of the commander in chief?

We didn't deliberately strike it. What would be the motivation? I don't like Obama, but this is ridiculous. 

[Stradling]

Because an eye for an eye works out so well.

What other choice do they have? If we were being attacked daily don't you think the right thing to do is respond?

[Glen]

Then if we deliberately struck it, don't you two think that is an act worthy of the resignation of the commander in chief?

Lol. ****ing Obama.

[juansavage1]

 

Ooh, Cuban music! Stalinesque.

 

By the way, just as many right-wing extremists are 9/11 truthers as left-wing extremist

 

Cuba is Stalinesque. I like Cuban music myself. I'm just pointing out that out of all the music in the world, Pacifica chose music approved and sponsored by a Stalinesque state. It's like a Nazi station playing Wagner- it fits. 

[juansavage1]

If you look at the world and single out Israel for being the bad, you're probably also an America-hater. It's the same thinking. There's no rational reason to come to this conclusion. UNLESS! 1). You see Israel's enemies as the underdog or 2) You see Israel as holding up progress, possibly because it's an ally of the Great Satan. 

 

A lot of it is just fashion too. It would be very uncool to hate poor brown people. 

[arch stanton]

more of this bullshit.  Israel is being attacked by Palestine daily.  Those cowardly pieces of human feces are doing everything they can to blow up innocent women and children.  I wish we would give Israel the go ahead to destroy everything in their wake but the international community is holding them back.  You're welcome.

Can you be more specific? What is this "Palestine" of which you speak?

[Angelsjunky]

The subject is hating America. You can find much of value in Zinn if you like (I personally find Marxism completely wrong, boring and predictable), but it's still a Marxist perspective of the US written by somebody who thinks that the US is evil. Why does he think the US is especially evil? Is it the only country that expanded its terrirtorry? No. Every country that exists exists because it expanded its territory? Has it treated people especially bad? No. The reason is that it has stood in the way of progress. That's why Marxists hate America. 

 

Juan, I'm not going to debate for Zinn - I can only present my own view. As I've said, I think he presents a VERY important side of history that folks such as yourself seem to willfully ignore. My view is that this country is both the light and dark, just as humans are.

 

 

What other choice do they have? If we were being attacked daily don't you think the right thing to do is respond?

 

Yes, they should respond. But responding as nate says, "Israel destroying everything in their wake," is not the answer. IMO.

 

 

Cuba is Stalinesque. I like Cuban music myself. I'm just pointing out that out of all the music in the world, Pacifica chose music approved and sponsored by a Stalinesque state. It's like a Nazi station playing Wagner- it fits. 

 

 

Cuba is not Stalinesque. Do you really believe all Fox news propaganda you hear?

 

Wagner was a Nazi sympathizer. This doesn't mean that all Cuban musicians are pro-Communist or Stalinesque.

[InsideThePark]

It's interesting how nate usually leans to the left politically but when it comes to Israel, he cheers on far-right hawks like Benjamin Netanyahu. I understand why some Christians show great support for Israel, it's due to their religious beliefs but Nate is an atheist. I get that he has ties to Israel but it's still kind of ridiculous to look at it from just one side.