we're in no way better than other countries

[juansavage1]

Juan, I'm not going to debate for Zinn - I can only present my own view. As I've said, I think he presents a VERY important side of history that folks such as yourself seem to willfully ignore. My view is that this country is both the light and dark, just as humans are.

 

 

 

Yes, they should respond. But responding as nate says, "Israel destroying everything in their wake," is not the answer. IMO.

 

 

Cuba is not Stalinesque. Do you really believe all Fox news propaganda you hear?

 

Wagner was a Nazi sympathizer. This doesn't mean that all Cuban musicians are pro-Communist or Stalinesque.

1. Cuba is a Stalinist state. It imprisons and kills dissenters. There's no freedom of religion, press, movement, or anything else. It controls all economic activity. Unlike apartheid and Israel, there's no difference between the way Castro runs Cuba and the way Stalin ran Russia. 

 

"But, what about the health care?"

 

Yes, if don't pay doctors and control all of the buildings, you can have something called a hospital and people can go inside and see somebody. They get care as long as they don't use any modern technology or medicine. 

 

2. If you find Marxist views of the US interesting, then you do. Do you think it's important that students read conservative histories of the US? I can recommend some basic ones. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Juan Savage

[juansavage1]

It's interesting how nate usually leans to the left politically but when it comes to Israel, he cheers on far-right hawks like Benjamin Netanyahu. I understand why some Christians show great support for Israel, it's due to their religious beliefs but Nate is an atheist. I get that he has ties to Israel but it's still kind of ridiculous to look at it from just one side.

Are you saying that support or hatred for/of Israel is based on being part of the left or right?

[Glen]

If you look at the world and single out Israel for being the bad, you're probably also an America-hater. It's the same thinking. There's no rational reason to come to this conclusion. UNLESS! 1). You see Israel's enemies as the underdog or 2) You see Israel as holding up progress, possibly because it's an ally of the Great Satan.

A lot of it is just fashion too. It would be very uncool to hate poor brown people.

Is there anything in your mind that isn't either-or, and a broad stereotype?

[juansavage1]

Is there anything in your mind that isn't either-or, and a broad stereotype?

I'm trying to make sense of people who look at the world and see Israel as an especially bad country. 

[InsideThePark]

Are you saying that support or hatred for/of Israel is based on being part of the left or right?

Nope. But Nate said that Israel should destroy everything in their wake. He supports what some of the most extreme right wing supporters of Israel want. It's crazy talk.

[juansavage1]

Is there anything in your mind that isn't either-or, and a broad stereotype?

Let me give you an example. Many Evangelical Christians strongly support Israel. Why don't they strongly support Myanmar or Peru or Burundi? I think a smart person would say that it's because they believe that Israel is special, according to scripture, and has an important role to play in history. 

 

It would be blind not to see obvious motivations. 

[InsideThePark]

I'm trying to make sense of people who look at the world and see Israel as an especially bad country.

No one here said that. Nice strawman though.

[Angelsjunky]

1. Cuba is a Stalinist state. It imprisons and kills dissenters. There's no freedom of religion, press, movement, or anything else. It controls all economic activity. Unlike apartheid and Israel, there's no difference between the way Castro runs Cuba and the way Stalin ran Russia. 

 

"But, what about the health care?"

 

Yes, if don't pay doctors and control all of the buildings, you can have something called a hospital and people can go inside and see somebody. They get care as long as they don't use any modern technology or medicine. 

 

2. If you find Marxist views of the US interesting, then you do. Do you think it's important that students read conservative histories of the US? I can recommend some basic ones. 

 

1. Its a matter of degree. And I disagree that Castro runs Cuba the way Stalin ran Russia. From what I've read that's a HUGE over-exaggeration.

 

2. I take the view that no one is smart enough to have the whole picture, and that Marxism is a valid perspective. It isn't about right or wrong - that's your black-and-white thinking again - but to what degree a worldview can offer perspective.

 

What do you mean by "conservative histories of the US?" But yeah, I think students should get a broad array of perspectives and learn to form their own. That said, I don't think all perspectives are equally valid.

[Blarg]

I was a liberal in college and I like political philosophy and history so I know a lot about this subject. Pacifica Radio supports communism. They play Cuban music every once in a while and I do remember 9/11 truther shows on the 9/11 anniversary. They also had famous communists on their banner a few years back. 

 

I think we can stick to the subject without the Juan disagrees with SSM so he must be gay and he hates communists so he must be a communist. 

 

Glen, would you tell a racist that he's wrong or about the history of racism? Does that mean that you're a racist? Surely, somebody who opposes a certain philosophy must secretly like that philosophy. 

 

 

We wouldn't want anyone being swayed by that kind of music. You should get on your feet before the rhythm is going to get you and you become a bad boy coming out of the darkness and declare here we are, because it's party time and in 1,2,3 it will turn the beat around. Oye.

[juansavage1]

1. Its a matter of degree. And I disagree that Castro runs Cuba the way Stalin ran Russia. From what I've read that's a HUGE over-exaggeration.

 

2. I take the view that no one is smart enough to have the whole picture, and that Marxism is a valid perspective. It isn't about right or wrong - that's your black-and-white thinking again - but to what degree a worldview can offer perspective.

 

What do you mean by "conservative histories of the US?" But yeah, I think students should get a broad array of perspectives and learn to form their own. That said, I don't think all perspectives are equally valid.

Fair enough. I do encourage you to see Castro's policies and behavior and compare to Stalin. They're exactly the same. Stalin had to kill more people because there were large parts of the Soviet Union who refused to conform for many years. 

 

You also have to remember that Stalin, like Castro, had a lot of admirers in the West. The E Rosenberg whom the commies in NY just declared a special day for, liked Stalin as did Alger Hiss and Pete Seeger. When Khrushchev came into power, he attacked Stalin and made it OK for communists to dislike Stalin. Pol Pot, after being defended by Chomsky, also fell out of favor when another communist country invaded Cambodia.

 

If another communist comes to power in Cuba and attacks Castro, then you'll see lots of American leftists say what a Stalinist he was.  

[Glen]

Kind of like how, according to you, 20 years ago people were clamoring for transgendered bathrooms?

[nate]

Can you be more specific? What is this "Palestine" of which you speak?

 

A group that chose a terrorist group to be their government residing in Gaza.

[arch stanton]

A group that chose a terrorist group to be their government residing in Gaza.

A solid side step considering that the post you quoted referred to Arabs living in Israel.

[nate]

The post I quoted refered to Israel's treatment of Palestinians as Apartied.

[Puget Sound Angel]

American Exceptionalsim = American Arrogance

[InsideThePark]

I don't know if that's what this is but shit like this can't happen. Apparently we were attacking that area for about an hour. That recklessness ended up killing people who were there to save lives.

[arch stanton]

The post I quoted refered to Israel's treatment of Palestinians as Apartied.

The post referred to people living in Israel, not Gaza.

[juansavage1]

American Exceptionalsim = American Arrogance

an insulting way of thinking or behaving that comes from believing that you are better, smarter, or more important than other people.

I agree that we shouldn't be obnoxious about it. We're just trying to explore whether it's true or not.

[juansavage1]

I don't know if that's what this is but shit like this can't happen. Apparently we were attacking that area for about an hour. That recklessness ended up killing people who were there to save lives.

I just don't see any strategic or psychological or any reason to bomb a hospital unless your goal is to make ourselves look bad on purpose.

[InsideThePark]

I didn't say it was intentional. It was more than likely a tragic mistake that could have been avoided.

[arch stanton]

According to the article it was a AC-130 gunship which would not be dropping bombs but firing on line of sight targets. In other words, a gunner was firing at a visual target. I doubt a gunner targeted the hospital but easily could have hit something adjacent to the building that caused a fire. This will just lead to a discussion about how close to the hospital they should have carried out the attacks.

[nate]

The post referred to people living in Israel, not Gaza.

 

You don't see a correlation with suicide bombers and militants lobbing rockets at Israel all day from Gaza and Israel's strict security measures?

[arch stanton]

You don't see a correlation with suicide bombers and militants lobbing rockets at Israel all day from Gaza and Israel's strict security measures?

Sure I see that. What I don't see is the correlation between rockets from Gaza and peaceful citizens of Israel being treated as second class, which is what was pointed out in the post.

[nate]

Because the ones blowing them up look like peaceful citizens before they explode their vests...

[juansavage1]

Sure I see that. What I don't see is the correlation between rockets from Gaza and peaceful citizens of Israel being treated as second class, which is what was pointed out in the post.

I think I see the correlation. First, I don't know what you're talking about specifically, since Israeli Arabs vote, own businesses, and hold office. But, assuming that there's some limit on immigration or something, I think it's reasonable for a nation meant as a haven for Jews to wish Jews remain the majority. 

 

It's the same principle as Indian Reservations. You have to prove you have some Indian heritage to get certain goodies and live on the reservation. If anybody could come in, it wouldn't really be an Indian Reservation anymore. Do we go on about apartheid on Indian Reservations?