Oregon state police: Reports of 10 dead at college

[Jason]

I think you are right Under. There are going to be those that love the attention and will commit this type of act to get it. The best thing we can do is to focus on victims and why this happened. The shooter, as an individual, really isn't that important.

[UndertheHalo]

Vladdy, my thing with that is the assumption that the good guys are gonna be able identify and take down the shooter quickly.  Obviously if that was the case, sure people would be saved.  These are chaotic scary situations.  I think whats more likely is a confused exchange of gunfire that puts even more people at risk.  What if the people trying to intervene shoot the wrong people ?  That seems just as likely as any positive outcome, perhaps more likely.  A great example was when Kathy Giffords and those other poor people got shot in Tucson. I recall reading about a guy who had a gun running over to help and almost shooting the people who were struggling with the actual shooter.  This guy tried to intervene with a noble purpose, but really he had no idea what was going on and was about to shoot the wrong people.  This is the problem with just arming everyone.  Maybe you are right and Im wrong I dont know.  But I don't see myself being convinced that more bullets flying through the air is a safer situation. 

[juansavage1]

The scientific approach would be to first determine if these incidences are actually on the rise. If so, then you try to isolate the cause. Since guns have always been available in the US, you can't blame any increase on guns. What is different about culture or circumstances that have led to a rise in these incidents?

[Jason]

I am a gun owner and 2nd amendment supporter. I think people should have CCW permits if they can pass the training, real training. I don't think they should be given out to every person. Just because you are a law abiding citizen doesn't mean you have good judgment and can actually hit the side of a barn with a gun. Pistols are not that easy to handle and shoot. It takes a lot of training to do it right.  

[juansavage1]

Also, the people here who say that the US doesn't care are wrong. If people didn't care, there wouldn't be 24 hour news coverage. What you really mean to say is that: 

 

"These bad things happen, but people still won't agree with me about gun control." 

 

Caring and agreeing with a specific policy are two different things. It's possible to care, but not be persuaded that a particular policy is the right reaction. 

[Angelsjunky]

I am a gun owner and 2nd amendment supporter. I think people should have CCW permits if they can pass the training, real training. I don't think they should be given out to every person. Just because you are a law abiding citizen doesn't mean you have good judgment and can actually hit the side of a barn with a gun. Pistols are not that easy to handle and shoot. It takes a lot of training to do it right.  

 

This. I am not a gun owner and feel that the 2nd amendment is outdated and needs amending, but I also don't see why responsible gun owners should be penalized because of crazies.

 

But the bottom line is that it is too easy to acquire a firearm in this country and that stricter permits and such would likely at least statistically reduce the chances of such events occurring.

 

Also, the people here who say that the US doesn't care are wrong. If people didn't care, there wouldn't be 24 hour news coverage. What you really mean to say is that: 

 

 

The media thrives on such events - that's why there is 24-hour news coverage. People care, but on one level it is entertainment. The news is largely about what sells, what is entertainment. Remember the ridiculous coverage of that Malaysian flight that went missing? That stopped being news after a few days and was just about entertaining people who "cared."

[UndertheHalo]

I tend to agree with AJ on the 2nd amendment as well.  Im not sure that an out right ban corrects anything.  We do need something to change with regard to guns though because they are just too accessible.  I would advocate strict control on the size of clips and that newly manufactured weapons for sale to the public be controlled somehow so that they can only be fired freely at a shooting range or something.  Im sure theres technology for that.  I also think that the sale of ammunition needs to be closely monitored.  Just free thinking here, maybe these aren't great ideas.  Theres definitely good steps that can be taken to make everyone safer tho.

Edited October 2, 2015 by UndertheHalo

[TobiasFunke]

Think about this: If you're going to commit suicide anyways, and you don't believe that there are any eternal consequences, and you like the idea of being famous, why not kill two birds with one stone?

Good job spinning this into your morality argument. You're a joke.

[Schildog]

strange there's not an ignore function here. that being said you can't ignore when people always quote him...

[Tank]

if you have to have classes and actual practice in order to drive a car, and then pass a test, then that should also be the same standard required in order to own a gun.

[nate]

strange there's not an ignore function here. that being said you can't ignore when people always quote him...

 

Go into your profile (click your portrait on the top left) and there is an ignore tab.  I have had troll daddy on ignore forever.

[Adam]

lol

[Jason]

Tank's point is right on. I don't think I should be limited on the firearms I buy but I am proficient in using them. There are plenty of ranges that one could use to "qualify" on your ability to properly and safely use them. Since I have guns (all locked up) and have a 10 year old child I have made sure to start teaching my daughter basic safety precautions. I take her out with air soft guns to do that. When I think she's mature enough I can start to have her handle the real ones. IMO it's all about personal responsibility.

[juansavage1]

Again, criticism without explanation=I can't answer you. 

 

For those of you willing to do something besides spout your Rachel Maddow talking points, we have to first determine if there's an increase in mass shootings and then we have to find correlations. 

 

If gun shootings are up, why? If mass killings are up, it can't be because of a constant factor, guns. I know basic social science might be above some of your heads, but this is the way smart people do things. 

 

"Go away. I heard that it was the gun clips and rednecks and I'm sticking to it."

 

As to your solutions: Do you have any evidence that they affect anything or are you just on lefty autopilot, "I feel it will work, so it will."

 

As to why people perform mass shootings (statistics ahead- run, lefties), about 20-30% of the killers are inspired by previous incidents. This killer noticed, in the quote, that mass killers are famous. Now, for suicidal nihilists, dying and becoming famous might have a certain appeal. 

 

"That's stupid. What about the rednecks and gun clips?"

[juansavage1]

By the way, some people here blamed the racist Southern culture for the roof killings, despite having no evidence that Southerners kill more blacks than anyplace else. What culture do you blame on this: Remember, people wanted to ban flags. 

 

"Gun culture and rednecks"

 

"Well, he was a black man who hated religion."

 

"Still, it's spillover from the redneck gun culture."

[Angelsjunky]

Juan, you don't find it disturbing that the United States has the highest firearm death rate of any developed country?

[juansavage1]

Juan, you don't find it disturbing that the United States has the highest firearm death rate of any developed country?

Yes. However, it's not as simple as you state. Again, the trick is correlations. 

 

For example, Mexico, where my wife is from, and a place I visit semi=frequently, has strict gun control. I know because when my mom-in-law's store was repeatedly robbed, she stated that she couldn't own a gun to defend herself. Yet, the murder rate is much higher than in the US. 

 

Japan has a low murder rate, but so do Japanese-Americans. 

 

My point is that culture correlates very strongly with crime, probably much more so than guns. 

 

That doesn't mean that there's no place for gun control (I ignore the constitution, as do most jurors). It's just that a thorough, SMART analysis is called for, not crude ones. 

[nate]

Using Mexico as an example is really apples to oranges.  They have hardly any police force or infrastructure.  Japanese Americans grew up with the values of not shooting guns so they are less inclined to do so here.

[juansavage1]

Using Mexico as an example is really apples to oranges.  They have hardly any police force or infrastructure.  Japanese Americans grew up with the values of not shooting guns so they are less inclined to do so here.

Do Japanese Americans have a lower rate of gun ownership, adjusted for urban-rural split? I don't know. Do you? Do all demographic groups have the same gun to murder rate? Why or why not?

 

Again, Americans have ALWAYS had guns, but the crime rate has fluctuated. I'm sure everybody had a gun in 1900 and in the late fifties, when the murder rate was low. Why? Mass murders are a small percentage of that. If mass murders are up, it's almost certainly a cultural phenomenon and not one of gun availability. And, mass murderers probably won't be deterred by smaller ammo clips, don't you think?

 

http://extranosalley.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/1USHOMRATE8511.png

[UndertheHalo]

Maybe if there's a cultural shift we need to adjust what can be allowed to reflect that Juan. I think you are right that it's not about the guns but rather a bad cultural phoenomena. Also, I'm not really who your trying to pin the "Rachel Maddow" talking points on. Maybe me since your making up quotes about clips. I did share an idea that I had about clips but I said that it may or may not be a great idea. You completely made up whatever that was that you tried to quote tho. Anyway the ing with clips is simple, maybe a crazy person can't fire off as many rounds.

[nate]

Japan owns .6 guns per 100 residents.  In the US they own 88 per 100 residents...

 

Also, I know for sure there is no reason anyone needs 7, or 13 hand guns and if this guy wasn't allowed to purchase so many the chances of so many people being killed are slim.

 

Mass shootings are not increased now, they have stayed the same over the last 30 years.  Maybe some day America will care.

[juansavage1]

Maybe if there's a cultural shift we need to adjust what can be allowed to reflect that Juan. I think you are right that it's not about the guns but rather a bad cultural phoenomena. Also, I'm not really who your trying to pin the "Rachel Maddow" talking points on. Maybe me since your making up quotes about clips. I did share an idea that I had about clips but I said that it may or may not be a great idea. You completely made up whatever that was that you tried to quote tho. Anyway the ing with clips is simple, maybe a crazy person can't fire off as many rounds.

I was directing my comments on people who were attacking me for my sincere and fact-based opinions. 

[juansavage1]

This chart is very interesting. It's the murder chart of the UK under the one for the US. The UK murder rate has remained steady despite more gun control. It seems as though it's increased in recent years. 

 

[juansavage1]

Japan owns .6 guns per 100 residents.  In the US they own 88 per 100 residents...

 

Also, I know for sure there is no reason anyone needs 7, or 13 hand guns and if this guy wasn't allowed to purchase so many the chances of so many people being killed are slim.

 

Mass shootings are not increased now, they have stayed the same over the last 30 years.  Maybe some day America will care.

Mass shootings might be so small as a percentage of violence that we really can't do anything about it. It's occurred in Finland and Norway and France and other places with gun restrictions. 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

This chart is very interesting. It's the murder chart of the UK under the one for the US. The UK murder rate has remained steady despite more gun control. It seems as though it's increased in recent years. 

 

 

In the UK in 2011-12, the last year for which there are complete statistics, there were 640 homicides. A total of 44 involved firearms. For the year. That is six percent of all murder cases, and a rate of 0.72 gun homicides per million population.

 

Citizens Report - Murders in the UK