New Evidence Regarding Napoli/Mathis

[TroutBaseball]

The Effectively Wild Podcast discussed a new Baseball Prospectus metric on catcher game calling. At the end Sam Miller asked for a comparison of Mathis and Napoli the year before Napoli was traded.

Mathis saved 58 runs

Napoli saved -33 runs

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=26493

[Blarg]

We all knew Napoli was an poor defensive catcher and there were plenty that saw the CERA on the wall for his career behind the plate. It didn't mean they needed to trade him at the time, he was useful in the DH and platoon at 1st base role.

[Docwaukee]

keeping Napoli would have been an easy fix.  Instead of Wells in LF for 2011, it would have been Trumbo.  Napoli could have moved to 1b and been the backup C.  Abreu was the DH and could have played a little LF on occasion.  

 

this wasn't about Mathis being a better C.  This was about MS not liking Napoli because he couldn't get him to be the catcher he wanted him to.  Or just a good old fashion personality conflict. It happens.  

[Michifan]

I'm old fashioned in that I tend to judge players by what I can observe with my eyes rather than what I cannot always perceive that factors into advanced metrics. That's my eye test, I guess, and here is what I saw.

Mathis couldn't hit a tree with his bat.

Napoli was a good hitter with ++ power.

Mathis had a poor throwing arm and did not always seem to know the difference between 1st and 2nd base.

Pitchers seemed to like pitching to Mathis but still pitched well with Napoli. 

Scioscia had it bad for Mathis and had it in for Napoli.

[Brandon]

Reminds me of that chick I used to know that was best friends with Butcher's wife. She wouldn't stop talking about how much Sosh hated Napoli.

 

Win or lose, that dude always hit the bar after games.

[Angel Oracle]

We all knew Napoli was an poor defensive catcher and there were plenty that saw the CERA on the wall for his career behind the plate. It didn't mean they needed to trade him at the time, he was useful in the DH and platoon at 1st base role.

Agreed, and especially to trade him for Mr. Pop-Up.

[Hollyw00d]

CERA!!!!!

[Taylor]

Reminds me of that chick I used to know that was best friends with Butcher's wife. She wouldn't stop talking about how much Sosh hated Napoli.

 

Win or lose, that dude always hit the bar after games.

 

Unless she played Xbox with Scott Kazmir, I don't believe her story one bit.

[shellback]

what a raft of shit

[ten ocho recon scout]

Reminds me of that chick I used to know that was best friends with Butcher's wife. She wouldn't stop talking about how much Sosh hated Napoli.

Win or lose, that dude always hit the bar after games.

yeah, theres been a few guys theough the years sosh didnt like and felt the wrath.

Weird as it sounds, i think mathis would have been more accepted playing here today than when he was here. Back then, there were still monster offenses in baseball. Now low scoring games are more the norm, and good defensive catchers have more value. Not saying mathis was 'good', but his plusses would probably be more valuable now

[Brandon]

Mathis was a great catcher that couldn't hit worth a shit.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Mathis was a great catcher that couldn't hit worth a shit.

thats what i mean...hed fight right in with this team today

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Mathis was a great catcher that couldn't hit worth a shit.

 

Funny, every time I looked up any measurable defensive statistic about him, he was nowhere near the top. Usually in the bottom third.

 

He is fine as a backup catcher, but not starting more than half of our games. He is a complete void offensively, and his defense isn't good enough to make up for his total lack of production at the plate.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Vegas Halo Fan

[nate]

Angels pitching has regressed every year since Mathis was dealt.  Not a coincidence.

[Hollyw00d]

Lol

[CanadianHalo]

#FreeDaStreetz

[shellback]

always liked the guy that showed up at a game in anaheim wearing a full nuns habit. had a large sign that read: MARRY ME MATHIS

[disarcina]

geez, we're still debating stuff from about four seasons -plus back now??

 

that's a sad commentary in and of itself.

 

that being said, Michifan's post above pretty much covers the bases on this topic.

 

Not sure what the issue was (and, apparently still is from afar) with Sosh and Naps -- but that got Napoli shipped out more than anything.

 

I said back then and again now -- I thought a player with Naps' skills was a very valuable guy to have on an AL roster...he can play 1B, DH and be a third string catcher if needed.  Has Naps caught much the past three seasons?  I don't think so. He was a terrible defensive catcher but can hit and play 1B and a good guy to have on the roster for those (limited) times when you need a third catcher.

 

As for Mathis -- after the whole controversy flared up in a constant (and, apparently never ending -- even though the players have since moved on - several times) way, I started to observe and watch Mathis behind the plate more closely -- and my conclusion was the same as Michifan above -- there were some aspects of the catching game where Mathis was consistently weak.  I could not understand why anyone would think he was a great defensive catcher -- I mean he certainly wasn't Yadier Molina.

[Jay]

At the time I didn't care that Nap was traded. He wasn't that good for us. I thought Rivera sucked and wanted him gone. I don't even remember if we tried Nap at 1B.

We can all look back now and claim we knew Nap was great but the truth is he wasn't great.

[disarcina]

Napoli played some first base for us.

 

there was even some talk of trying him at third base but I don't think he played there for us.

 

back then he may have even played some OF for the Halos -- not much.

 

at the end of his time he, he certainly wasn't catching much.

[Hollyw00d]

It wasn't so much that Napoli was great, rather Mathis sucked so bad. That's why the decision was such a blunder and lopsided mistake.

Mathis was better defensively, I think most of us can acknowledge that. But his retardation with the bat was so severe that it completely negated any defensive value he had, and then some.

Its equivalent to scioscia deciding he likes featherston's defense better than aybar, and shipping Erick off for Ryan howard

[HeavenlyHalos]

At the time I didn't care that Nap was traded. He wasn't that good for us. I thought Rivera sucked and wanted him gone. I don't even remember if we tried Nap at 1B.

We can all look back now and claim we knew Nap was great but the truth is he wasn't great.

 

In his Angels career he had an OPS of .831 (119 OPS+); he was certainly a good hitter with us, albeit out of position defensively. In any event, he brought a whole helluva lot more value than Vernon Wells and was something like $75 million cheaper.

[ten ocho recon scout]

It wasnt so much that naps was 'great', but that he cost 5 mill to gsive you 25 home runs a year...and we flipped that to pay 20 mill to get the same numbers

And then we didnt even get those...

I think most would have been good to trade nap to get somethijg similar (or better), but vernon wells on a good day (with park factors) was gonna give you naps' numbers but for way more money

[Don]

We all knew Napoli was an poor defensive catcher and there were plenty that saw the CERA on the wall for his career behind the plate. It didn't mean they needed to trade him at the time, he was useful in the DH and platoon at 1st base role.

Exactly. It was never a question of who was a better catcher (though I still don't think Mathis was particularly stellar). It was just that Napoli proved to be an offensive weapon that deserved more consistent at bats than he received.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Don

[Stradling]

Funny, every time I looked up any measurable defensive statistic about him, he was nowhere near the top. Usually in the bottom third.

He is fine as a backup catcher, but not starting more than half of our games. He is a complete void offensively, and his defense isn't good enough to make up for his total lack of production at the plate.

Insert Eric's go to post showing how Napoli still started more games at catcher than Mathis.