Howie Kendrick gets NO RESPECT

[monkeywithahalo]

 

 

 

Guys who watch games and appreciate advanced stats might call you out for cherry-picking the stats.   Kendrick's 2012 is a massive outler for his career, he had a positive WPA the four seasons before 2012, and the next worst WPA in his career was the -0.39 last year.  

Not cherrypicking so much as providing context for the imaginary scenario that WallyWorld described. 2012 was an outlier, but it was what people who are banging him for being unclutch saw. I was simply pointing out that what they saw was real and not just selective memory or straight up fabrication. He has struggled in high leverage the last few years, and though everyone is prone to those kind of fluctuations, the receny of Kendrick's struggles has tainted people's opinion on him. More to the point of the general discussion, Kendrick's warts are very visible. Seeing him hit into a GIDP is very visible and memorable. On the other end of the spectrum, when Aybar goes three weeks without drawing a walk, it is a big wart, but one that is not easily noticed. I like Kendrick. He is a great second baseman who provides a lot of value. That value just hasn't come in high leverage situations the last two years. That doesn't necessarily mean it won't this year.

[Marsaka]

I'd ask you why you try so hard to be stupid, but I think it just comes naturally,.

 

Again, why do you try so hard to be funny?  Do you honestly hope people on a message board will like you more?  Please actually answer this time.

[Jim]

all the guys u named are high profile hitters, usually hitting in the 3, 4, and 5 spots in the lineup and every opposing team has a plan to specifically get them out.  do you have any players similar to howie kendrick...you know like the fly on the wall type of player that no one in baseball gives any attention, yet they still suck in clutch situations.

haha, really? Other teams only scout 3-5? Screw those other guys, they'll never beat us. Wow!

[Brent Maguire]

Do you really think people on an Angels message board don't watch the games? 

 

Stop with the "watch the games" bs. You know damn well that the people on here are passionate Angels fans who do pay attention to the games. 

[Marsaka]

haha, really? Other teams only scout 3-5? Screw those other guys, they'll never beat us. Wow!

 

not nearly as much as kendrick is.  we all know his scouting report without even looking at it, man on base: throw slider away x 3, easy strike out.  not hard was it?

[Jim]

I really like Kendrick.  It's clear he is an extremely valuable player (Yep, I watch the games..) with a pretty friendly contract. 

 

However, I'd still be open to dealing him.  Mark Ellis could be brought in, and some combo of Ellis/Green/Lindsey would definitely hold the fort until Lindsey is ready full time in '15.

Why are you so ready to give up on the 2014 season?

[Marsaka]

Do you really think people on an Angels message board don't watch the games? 

 

Stop with the "watch the games" bs. You know damn well that the people on here are passionate Angels fans who do pay attention to the games. 

 

well its the only conclusion i could come up with when people say things like "kendrick is a good defender", "kendrick is a top 5 second baseman"  wtf no HES NOT

[Inside Pitch]

Not cherrypicking so much as providing context for the imaginary scenario that WallyWorld described. 2012 was an outlier, but it was what people who are banging him for being unclutch saw. I was simply pointing out that what they saw was real and not just selective memory or straight up fabrication. He has struggled in high leverage the last few years, and though everyone is prone to those kind of fluctuations, the receny of Kendrick's struggles has tainted people's opinion on him. More to the point of the general discussion, Kendrick's warts are very visible. Seeing him hit into a GIDP is very visible and memorable. On the other end of the spectrum, when Aybar goes three weeks without drawing a walk, it is a big wart, but one that is not easily noticed. I like Kendrick. He is a great second baseman who provides a lot of value. That value just hasn't come in high leverage situations the last two years. That doesn't necessarily mean it won't this year.

 

 

Fair statement.   But, you do agree that that one season was a massive outlier, don't you?   I think the guy who said the hate for Howie stems from his not having lived up to the sportswriter hype pegged it.   

[mancini79]

I'm sure hitting behind speedy Trumbo helped his GIDPs.

[Jim]

not nearly as much as kendrick is.  we all know his scouting report without even looking at it, man on base: throw slider away x 3, easy strike out.  not hard was it?

And yet, Howie was still able to be successful at the plate. Go figure.  

[Angels Never Die]

I think he should be traded because I think he'd be more valuable in a trade than he is to us. He's 30, we have Green, and he's the type of player that gets overvalued because of his batting average and his position. It's a good time to trade him and cash in on his value.

[monkeywithahalo]

Fair statement.   But, you do agree that that one season was a massive outlier, don't you?   I think the guy who said the hate for Howie stems from his not having lived up to the sportswriter hype pegged it.   

100% agree and I think that outlier season of "unclutchness" has fanned the flames of him not living up to the hype.

 

Also, I'd like recommend that in 2014, we keep a community scoreboard of who watched what game so that Marsaka knows who really does and doesn't watch the games since that is obviously becoming such a big problem. I, for one, am shocked at how many people apparently spend so much time on this message board yet have not seen one of these, I believe it is called "based ball" games.

[Brent Maguire]

well its the only conclusion i could come up with when people say things like "kendrick is a good defender", "kendrick is a top 5 second baseman"  wtf no HES NOT

1) Kendrick is a good defender. You can use basic stats(errors, FLD%), advanced stats(UZR) and the eye test, which he definitely passes, and all say he's an above average defender.

2) As I said earlier, he's 6th in WAR among 2nd basemen since 2011. So the idea that he is a top 5 second baseman isn't outlandish at all. He's also extremely cheap. Omar Infante just got a 4/30 deal today. If Howie were a FA, he'd be looking at something like 5/50 from multiple teams. 

[Scott34]

Why are you so ready to give up on the 2014 season?

 

What are you talking about?

[Inside Pitch]

Huh?  I'm not the one who used stats to suggest howie is not clutch.  I clearly said based on watching games.  You might wanna watch a few before talking.

 

Stop making things up in your head and claiming I said them.  

 

No you're the guy that said that those were high profile players with resumes so teams try to get them out.   That was the ridiculous comment I responded to by asking you if it was cool for those high profile bats making lots of money not coming through.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[Jim]

100% agree and I think that outlier season of "unclutchness" has fanned the flames of him not living up to the hype.

 

Also, I'd like recommend that in 2014, we keep a community scoreboard of who watched what game so that Marsaka knows who really does and doesn't watch the games since that is obviously becoming such a big problem. I, for one, am shocked at how many people apparently spend so much time on this message board yet have not seen one of these, I believe it is called "based ball" games.

Great idea. I vote Marsaka for community scoreboard leader.  

[AZMike]

No we look at Howie and compare him to other second baseman and we realize we have it really good. Also if clutch doesn't exist then neither does not being clutch.

 

Interestingly Howie was not the least clutch player on the Angels in 2013. Mike Trout was the least clutch player in the American League. 

Edited December 13, 2013 by AZMike

[Marsaka]

 

No you're the guy that said that those were high profile players with resumes so teams try to get them out.   That was the ridiculous comment I responded to by asking you if it was cool for those high profile bats making lots of money didn't come through.

 

I'm glad you were finally able to respond without sounding like a 3 year old.  

 

As for the high profile bats you cant compare them to kendrick because in late games they face guys throwing 100 mph, or they try and get pitched around etc, its not the same thing you would do with kendrick would you?  that's why I asked for a player similar to kendrick.  the only stats I personally look at are the situational ones.  If you compare those to kendrick you get - Miguel Cabrera with bases empty hits .331 avg, w/runners on hits 366 avg(.397 risp), ortiz bases empty .287 avg, w/runners on .330 avg, cano bases empty .256, w/runners on .366(.356 risp) kendrick bases empty .328 avg, w/runners on .256 avg

 

All of those guys step up there game when runners are on base and become a lot tougher to get out, that's why they make the big money im guessing?  While kendrick clearly folds or panics in those situations. 

 

Based on that they dont really compare do they?  

Edited December 13, 2013 by Marsaka

[tdawg87]

Howie hit .285 with RISP in 2012. He also had the same OPS as with no one on base.

[beatlesrule]

[ten ocho recon scout]

comparing guys who command 20m a year, have all star appearances, mvp's etc to kendrick makes no sense. show me players similar to him.

comparing guys that bat in spot X vs spot Y and saying pitchers have a plan only for X makes no sense.

[VariousCrap]

I like Howie and have enjoyed watching him play for the most part; however if you can get a nice return for him, you have to do it.  That is just smart business.

[Inside Pitch]

 

As for the high profile bats you cant compare them to kendrick because in late games they face guys throwing 100 mph, or they try and get pitched around etc, its not the same thing you would do with kendrick would you?  that's why I asked for a player similar to kendrick.  the only stats I personally look at are the situational ones.  If you compare those to kendrick you get - Miguel Cabrera with bases empty hits .331 avg, w/runners on hits 366 avg(.397 risp), ortiz bases empty .287 avg, w/runners on .330 avg, cano bases empty .256, w/runners on .366(.356 risp) kendrick bases empty .328 avg, w/runners on .256 avg

 

 

You really believe this BS don't you?   I mean, do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?   Do you only see closers come in to face the 3-4-5 guys? If they really are "pitching around them" wouldn't they then be facing Howie since he's been batting 6th for most of the last couple years or do they pull the guy out when they see Howie cause he's such an easy out? Is this really what you see when you watch games?  

 

BTW, I already posted Cabrera and Ortiz's career "Clutch" stats -- they were both below average.  Cano for his career is -4.64. 

Edited December 13, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[ten ocho recon scout]

I really like Kendrick. It's clear he is an extremely valuable player (Yep, I watch the games..) with a pretty friendly contract.

However, I'd still be open to dealing him. Mark Ellis could be brought in, and some combo of Ellis/Green/Lindsey would definitely hold the fort until Lindsey is ready full time in '15.

in a nutshell.

He's at worst solid with the bat and glove at his position. To improve on what he does and wheee he does it would cost a lot more than what it currently cost us.

That said, if someone wanted to give us something we need more for him, you do it.

We don't have a younger guy 'blocked' by him. We aren't cash strapped because of him. The people who don't like him are a little unrealistic, IMO

[Chris]

I like Howie.

 

But we have Green, Lindsay, and Yarbrough behind him.  He's good enough to net a solid pitcher or two.

 

I'm fine with keeping him.  If we stay in the race keep him.  If we fall out of the race trade him for an arm or two at the trade deadline.