Howie Kendrick gets NO RESPECT

[Blarg]

To keep it plain and simple, I'm tired of watching him hit into double plays.

 

And yet some damn fools want the Angels to trade for Billy Butler, the King of GIDP.

 

Dustin Pedroia hit into more double plays than Kendrick last season. So did Kendrys Morales, David Ortiz, Victor Martinez, Prince Fielder, Miguel Cabrera, Robinson Cano, Edwin Encarnacion, Adrian Beltre, Alexi Ramirez, along with 19 other players, all guys you probably would want on the team. And that is just the AL.

 

If you are basing your whole scouting world around 16 plate appearances out of 513 by a player, all year, you just are watching the wrong thing.

[Lhalo]

how many times have the angels made the playoffs when Howie has had more than 375 ab's? 0

You've cracked the code Marsaka. Howie is the reason the Angels haven't been making the playoffs.

[Marsaka]

You've cracked the code Marsaka. Howie is the reason the Angels haven't been making the playoffs.

 

Not the sole reason but a big part of it, especially in 2012.

[Blarg]

Angels have been trying to trade him since last July, no one will bite for good reason.  It looks like we are stuck with him for another 2 years.

 

 

 

how many times have the angels made the playoffs when Howie has had more than 375 ab's?  0

 

2009 Kendrick had 400 plate appearances. At age 22-23 (2006-2007) he was a platooned call up. In 2008 he was on the DL from April 14th to May 30th. You are a dumbass extraordinaire.

[Docwaukee]

I am not a Howie hater.  He's a very nice player. 

 

Yet, I can see why some people are down on him.  I see someone already mentioned it, but the WPA info is very telling about both him and Aybar.  These two players show a fairly large discrepency between their WAR and what actually happened on the field (WPA)

 

From 2008-2013

WAR

Howie - 17.1 (2nd on the team in that time frame for qualified position players)

Aybar - 15.9 (4th)

 

WPA

Howie - 0.11 (11th)

Aybar - -1.95 (15th - only ahead of jeff mathis and his whopping -5.83)

 

They are both very nice players and have good value, but WPA is a retrospecitve accumulation of actual events that happened on the field.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I love black guys. Wish we had a few more

real ones or imposters?

[Angel Oracle]

If not for the GIDPs and the swinging at so many sliders down and away.... 

[WallyWorld]

For the record I don't think Howie is a bad player and I wouldn't trade him for peanuts.  But if the Angels could get a halfway decent value for him, I do think they'd be better off without him.

[Stradling]

Marsaka your opinion of Howie is so off the mark that I would say you are mentally challenged but I don't want to offend mentally challenged people.

[jshep]

Given this board's obsession with GIDPs, I can already tell Freese is going to be super popular during the season.

[ten ocho recon scout]

we need more brothas like Howie and Reggie Willits

was I the only one who felt a bit guilty when I'd heard willits' name for months and just assumed, and when I finally saw him, he turned out not to be?

That day I bought a homemade rap cd from some guy at a gas station just to feel like 'I'm not like that'.

[Chuck]

I am one of those fans who is probably harder on Howie than he deserves... it's just that I often feel like he has that "deer in headlights" look in the post season.. or in clutch situations. I must think that way for a reason.

 

I'm with you. I still hold out hope for that batting title for Howie, as I think he has the swing and approach to get one someday, but the guy just fails all too often when the game is on the line it seems.

[ten ocho recon scout]

For the record I don't think Howie is a bad player and I wouldn't trade him for peanuts. But if the Angels could get a halfway decent value for him, I do think they'd be better off without him.

I wouldn't trade him for halfway decent value, and I'm not really sure we'd be better without him.

He's a plus bat (for his position) and fields well. Thats very solid IMO. If we could flip him for mid rotation arm, yes we would probably be better.

If we flipped him for back of the rotation depth, se would not be better (given his replacement).

[ettin]

And yet some damn fools want the Angels to trade for Billy Butler, the King of GIDP.

 

Dustin Pedroia hit into more double plays than Kendrick last season. So did Kendrys Morales, David Ortiz, Victor Martinez, Prince Fielder, Miguel Cabrera, Robinson Cano, Edwin Encarnacion, Adrian Beltre, Alexi Ramirez, along with 19 other players, all guys you probably would want on the team. And that is just the AL.

 

If you are basing your whole scouting world around 16 plate appearances out of 513 by a player, all year, you just are watching the wrong thing.

 

No I want to trade for Billy Butler to hit in the DH spot because we can fit him in for a mere two years remaining on his contract and he has excellent OBP combined with some real pop in his bat.

 

The only way we could even trade for him is to send a Howie Kendrick-based trade package which would remove Howie's GIDP and replace them with Butler's GIDP. This assumes of course that we find a suitable replacement for Kendrick (Eric Young Jr. of the Mets perhaps) or platoon at 2B.

 

I would only advocate a trade of Kendrick if he brought back a young pitching prospect anyway. He is worth quite a bit at the moment and I wouldn't just arbitrarily move him unless we were getting back something for our long  term future.

 

[Blarg]

Butler hit into more double plays than anyone in the AL.

[WallyWorld]

He is worth quite a bit at the moment

 

 

To whom?  

[Jim]

why doesn't he get any love around here? You guys will settle for a #4 starter for him when in reality HK can be one of the best 2nd basemen in the game. It makes No sense to me!

Of our full time players, Kendrick was the second best offensive player we had on the team last year, and third best among the AL second basemen. Altuve, Pedroia, Cano, and Zobrist all hit into more double plays last year, and of that stellar group, two went to the playoffs. So it’s not like Kendrick kept us from the playoffs, as some might suggest.

 

Wally gives an example of a game we lost by seven runs. Those are seven runs given up by our pitching staff along with poor defense. Not to mention the other 8 guys in the lineup with bats in their hands. What did they do?

 

As far as second basemen are concerned, he’s all good in my book. Yes, his fielding has room for improvement. Many of his teammates have shown themselves in need of improvement as well. We landed in 27^th place defensively last year.  

He gets my respect. His is the only jersey I own. Like someone said earlier, he hasn't won the battle title yet, so many here believe that's a bust. They need to get a grip. His contract is friendly, and he’s a necessary part of this team if we are to make a playoff run.

[WallyWorld]

Howie is death by a thousand paper cuts.  No huge deficiencies, but lots of little things that kill you over time. 

[stormngt]

I am really high on howie. In fact I believe most of the criticism against him is silly. However I advocate trading him IF we can sign Choo thus dramatically improving our offense and defense in the outfield. And bring in some quality prospects that would complet the rebuilding of our farm and free up money for a future Trout extension. Plus he is replaceable. Like it or not Howie will probably be gone in two years anyway. Lets trade him when we can get good value for him

Now for the record I wouod prefer a trade of Aybar over Kendrick.

[CanadianHalo]

And yet some damn fools want the Angels to trade for Billy Butler, the King of GIDP.

Dustin Pedroia hit into more double plays than Kendrick last season. So did Kendrys Morales, David Ortiz, Victor Martinez, Prince Fielder, Miguel Cabrera, Robinson Cano, Edwin Encarnacion, Adrian Beltre, Alexi Ramirez, along with 19 other players, all guys you probably would want on the team. And that is just the AL.

If you are basing your whole scouting world around 16 plate appearances out of 513 by a player, all year, you just are watching the wrong thing.

Really not trying to get into a huge debate, basically just leaving my 2 cents. For the 5th time in 20 years my football team has a winning record, so I'm going to enjoy football season and get into full baseball mode in a bit.

As far as Kendrick goes, it's obviously more than just the double plays. It's the fact he swings at the same dam slider in the dirt every at bat when everyone knows it's coming. Like WallyWorld said, his numbers are always pretty decent but they don't tell the whole story with him.

I'll assume you just listed off those guys up top because of the GIDP stat, because all those guys do so much for there teams than Howie does. Bash me all you want for this but when I watch howie play, I don't see that "fire" that I see in guys that want to win or want to be great. Howie always seems content IMO.

With that said, I wouldn't trade Howie for just anything, I do believe he has value.

[WallyWorld]

In fact I believe most of the criticism against him is silly.

 

Kendrick had a -2.25 WPA in 2012 (5th worst in the majors that year) and -0.39 last year. And his career Clutch score according to Fangraphs is -2.81.

 

That's silly?

[Brent Maguire]

"how many times have the angels made the playoffs when Howie has had more than 375 ab's?  0"

 

This is by far the worst argument I've seen on here for not liking a player. Did Howie hit on your girl or something?

[Jim]

I'm with you. I still hold out hope for that batting title for Howie, as I think he has the swing and approach to get one someday, but the guy just fails all too often when the game is on the line it seems.

Until the pitching staff and the MOTO bats gets their collective shit together, the game is going to be on the line far more often than one guy can make a real difference. Howie is not the reason for the season.  

[Inside Pitch]

 

So here I was about to throw shade at WallyWorld for providing an anecdotal narrative and not supporting it with actual evidence at all. I thought for sure that it would be poppycock, but lo and behold, Kendrick had a -2.25 WPA in 2012 (5th worst in the majors that year) and -0.39 last year. And his career Clutch score according to Fangraphs is -2.81. So, um, yeah. Good call, WallyWorld.

 

That doesn't mean he is a bad player though. It just suggests that he doesn't deliver in high leverage situations, or at least he hasn't the last few years. A big reason for that is the GIDPs. But that is always going to be part of the package with Howie, who has the 15th highest groundball rate in the majors over the last three years. He has warts, everyone does. I just think that Howie's are more readily visible to those of us who watch the games. And us stat guys.

 

Wait, guys who watch the games and appreciate advanced statistics? Those aren't mutually exclusive? Who knew?!

 

Guys who watch games and appreciate advanced stats might call you out for cherry-picking the stats.   Kendrick's 2012 is a massive outler for his career, he had a positive WPA the four seasons before 2012, and the next worst WPA in his career was the -0.39 last year.  

 

BTW, Mike Trout's career clutch score is -2.36, he was -2.51 last year.   

 

Data between 1974-2013

 

Reggie Jackson -0.60. 

David Ortiz -0.29.  

Barry Bonds -9.33 (9th worst)

Jim Thome -11.64. (4th worst)

Mike Schmidt -13.45 (2nd worst)

Miguel Cabrera -1.56

Manny Ramirez -6.21

Frank Thomas -7.97

Chipper Jones -5.42

Adrian Beltre -9.20 (10th worst)

 

Mark McLemore is number four in the best Clutch score..  Ozzie Guillen is 7th.  Jose Lind is number 9..  Even funnier, Bill Spiers, Randy Winn, Jim Leiritz, Willie Bloomquist, Jose Vizcaino, Juan Pierre, and Bobby Abreu are all in the top 25 in Clutch between 1974-2013.

 

But maybe the funniest part of all.  Bill Buckner, the goat of the 86 WS is in the top 30.  

Edited December 13, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[Angels]

Kendrick had a -2.25 WPA in 2012 (5th worst in the majors that year) and -0.39 last year. And his career Clutch score according to Fangraphs is -2.81.

 

That's silly?

 

Miguel Cabrera is at -1.56 for his career.

 

Robinson Cano is at -4.64 for his career.

 

David Ortiz is at -2.65 from 2011-2013.

 

Evan Longoria is at -2.96 for his career.

 

Buster Posey is at -1.57 for his career.

 

 

Why would anyone want these guys? They're not "clutch."

Edited December 13, 2013 by Angels