Caught Looking: AL MVP Talk

[m0nkey]

In the real world, are your bonuses tied to what your coworkers do?

Hey man, you've been the most productive worker here, and you bring in more revenue than any one person does in the world. But your coworkers aren't cutting it, so we can't give you a raise. Sorry

[Blarg]

That's the point of defensive metrics. They evaluate a players individual work on the defensive side, not the teams. I guess since that doesn't support your argument that Cabrera is MVP, you don't like it....

 

Defensive metrics are just a number derived by a pre-designated set of parameters where an average player is supposed to start at a position and field a ball hit to an area in the infield. It never takes into account defensive shifts which can adversely affect a players ability to make up ground on a ball hit within the boundaries of what was pre determined as within range. No bunt is within that reasonable range of a defender not playing for one.

 

I am not arguing Cabrera is a great fielder or even a good one. I am saying his contribution to the Tigers far outweighs whatever his defensive liability creates. His contributions this season, carried over to the Angels in place of Callaspo and without Mike Trout would provide more wins over this season.

 

Of course that is my opinion and would require more time than I can afford while at work to provide anything that constitutes a factual argument. Maybe over the weekend.

[Blarg]

^^ Strawman alert ^^

 

That is such a ridiculous thing for you to say. My argument isn't even about errors. That's the kind of barbaric stat that gold glove voters from the BBWA use. It's about range - Cabrera lacks that big time, and the defensive metrics all back that up. If you think you're smarter than the metrics, then go ahead and keep up all the strawman arguments...

 

Your argument is a Seinfeld episode, a lot of talk without substance.

[Bashbrothers]

Defensive metrics are just a number derived by a pre-designated set of parameters where an average player is supposed to start at a position and field a ball hit to an area in the infield. It never takes into account defensive shifts which can adversely affect a players ability to make up ground on a ball hit within the boundaries of what was pre determined as within range. No bunt is within that reasonable range of a defender not playing for one.

 

I am not arguing Cabrera is a great fielder or even a good one. I am saying his contribution to the Tigers far outweighs whatever his defensive liability creates. His contributions this season, carried over to the Angels in place of Callaspo and without Mike Trout would provide more wins over this season.

 

Of course that is my opinion and would require more time than I can afford while at work to provide anything that constitutes a factual argument. Maybe over the weekend.

They do far outweigh his fielding.  His contributions.  You aren't wrong when you say that.  However, they don't outweigh it enough to make him better than Trout.  Look at it from a runs stand point.

 

Trout has created 124 runs with his offense and has cost the Angels one entire run with his defense.  Trout has been 123 runs this season.

 

Miggy has created 133 runs with his offense and has cost the Tigers 17 runs on the fielding.   He is worth 116 runs.

 

So Trout is seven runs better.

[jshep]

Wait, am I missing something or was it suggested that the only satisfactory way of measuring how much Cabrera's defense has cost the Tigers was by going game by game and somehow determining whether Cabrera's defensive play cost the Tigers that particular game?

 

I don't even know where to begin with that. Because first of all, that would only give you the errors he's committed, which is only a piece of the equation. It ignores the balls that just wizz right past him because his range there is one step and a fall to the ground. Those hurt the Tigers too, even if they don't show up in a boxscore.

 

And then there's the standard of "costing the Tigers the game", which is dubious at best.

 

Obviously Cabrera committing an error that allows the other team to tie and/or take a lead fits into that fairly easily(not necessarily totally fairly in every case, considering everything else that happened in a particular baseball game, but I digress).

 

But Cabrera flopping to the ground and missing a double down the line that a good fielder turns into an out that brings in runs in the 8th or 9th hurts the Tigers just as much if not more than the throw that sails over Prince Fielder's head. Not going to show up in a box score.

 

Or what about an error or missed play by Cabrera in the 3rd or 4th inning that costs the Tigers runs, but the other team doesn't take the lead until later in the game because of something else? That certainly still hurts the Tigers even if it didn't directly "cost them the game"

 

And really, you could go so far as to ignore a play that brings in runs altogether, and (pretty accurately) point out that Cabrera missing a play in the early innings that doesn't bring in any runs but forces Scherzer or Verlander to throw an extra 15-20 pitches and therefore exit the game earlier also hurts the Tigers, because then you're forced to get outs out of a middle reliever instead of one of your better starting pitchers.

 

tl;dr version: This is either an excellent troll attempt, or one of the silliest things I've read on this board...ever.

Edited September 6, 2013 by jshep

[jshep]

Cabrera may not have the range of a Beltre but they both share the same fielding percentage.

He is playing out of position which gives him value to his team. He also has a knack for hitting in clutch situations.

 

The fact that Miguel Cabrera and Adrian Beltre have the same fielding percentage should tell you something about fielding percentage.

[ten ocho recon scout]

In terms of fairly weak division.

Only the al east and the nl central are better.

[Troll Daddy]

They do far outweigh his fielding. His contributions. You aren't wrong when you say that. However, they don't outweigh it enough to make him better than Trout. Look at it from a runs stand point.

Trout has created 124 runs with his offense and has cost the Angels one entire run with his defense. Trout has been 123 runs this season.

Miggy has created 133 runs with his offense and has cost the Tigers 17 runs on the fielding. He is worth 116 runs.

So Trout is seven runs better.

Curious how many runs Trout has cost the team with is arm. He can't even mustard up one assist?

[AngelsLakersFan]

Your argument is a Seinfeld episode, a lot of talk without substance.

 

First he says Trout isn't the MVP, now he's talking shit on Seinfeld!!

[YouthofToday]

Jshep showed a ton of #want and tWtW with an excellent post. Too bad there aren't any real statistics to validate the grittiness of his effort.

[Blarg]

They do far outweigh his fielding.  His contributions.  You aren't wrong when you say that.  However, they don't outweigh it enough to make him better than Trout.  Look at it from a runs stand point.

 

Trout has created 124 runs with his offense and has cost the Angels one entire run with his defense.  Trout has been 123 runs this season.

 

Miggy has created 133 runs with his offense and has cost the Tigers 17 runs on the fielding.   He is worth 116 runs.

 

So Trout is seven runs better.

 

I really don't see where you get that number. Trout has 83 RBI this season. He has a total of 95 runs scored. Cabrera has 131 rbi and 96 runs scored.

[tdawg87]

Runs created is much more complicated than that. Though I won't even begin to try to explain it because I don't understand it myself nor do I use it when evaluating players.

[ScottT]

Mike Trout is the best, most amazing, awesomest , and most valuable player in baseball.

[fan_since79]

Trout's offensive WAR is already higher than all of last season.

 

9.1 this year, 8.8 in 2013.

 

(using Baseball Reference number)

[YouthofToday]

RBI actually means Really Bad Indicator

[Troll Daddy]

RBI actually means Really Bad Indicator

You are clueless and need to stop playing baseball on your XBox.

[YouthofToday]

You are clueless and need to stop playing baseball on your XBox.

Clueless? You are just trolling me now.

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't own a video game system.

[Bashbrothers]

You are clueless and need to stop playing baseball on your XBox.

This argument never goes anywhere on a forum because the stat heads know the foundation and appropriate context/usage, and know they are tools, wheras people against advanced metrics, well, they are in a form of denial basically, and 9 of of 10 are pretty ignorant to the sport in question, advanced metrics isn't something new, the applications may be. No one should have to explain why advanced metrics in sports are useful to the common college educated person, they would already know the answer or reach the conclusion using common sense.

 

It's not a right/wrong argument, there really is not argument, there are facts, and theories. Math consists of facts. Not opinions.

[Halos of Anaheim]

I really don't see where you get that number. Trout has 83 RBI this season. He has a total of 95 runs scored. Cabrera has 131 rbi and 96 runs scored.

lol at how you obliviously ignored base running. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

You act like fangraphs is some crazy website with hokie statistics and witchcraft. It's actually very useful and provides statistics which can't be found in a generic box score.

Also, has he even mentioned that site in this thread?

fangraphs has killed several promising young players by throwing them in a well to see if they would drown.

Ralston schmidt is the only one who levitated out of the water.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Curious how many runs Trout has cost the team with is arm. He can't even mustard up one assist?

if trout was a complete player, he would get more guys to run on him when he's coming in on the ball.

[YouthofToday]

If it wasn't for the bloggers living in their mother's basements who run FanGraphs the NFL never would have become the most popular support in America and the Angels would have won numerous WS titles in the last decade.

For the sake on future generations of hard-working Angels fans FanGraphs must be silenced by the NSA...