Adellgate (Adell unhappy?)

[Docwaukee]

11 minutes ago, Trendon said:

It really makes you wonder why he wasn’t doing that in 2020 and 2021. Or at least doing it in a more “obvious, easily observable, manner.”

I wonder how much blame deserves to go towards Maddon on that.

He was all talk and no action in regards to fundamentals. He wanted an old school game to be played, but then liked to have his guys show up later than normal for games, not do on-field work, and stuff like that.

I'm not sure you call a guy up at the age of 21 without him getting regular game reps if they felt like that was necessary for him.  It clearly wasn't a focal point they felt was needed.  

And they wouldn't have called him up if they weren't confident he was doing everything he'd been asked from a development standpoint.  

So he goes from another regime calling him up to fail.  To a change in regime that might have had him focusing on different things.  To discord between the leadership on the field vs. the FO where what he was being told in the minor might have been different than in the majors.   All the while not seeing results at the major league level doing what was asked of him and actually seeing his numbers slide in AAA as well.  And I would imagine that the narrative was 'hey, keep doing what you're doing and it'll work'.  Then to driveline in the offseason likely at the FO's request.  Then the Angels trade for a starting OFer.  Then they sign a 'clubhouse' defense only guy for just above league min to essentially take his shot at a roster spot.  

Should he have used social media for some veiled protest to vent his frustration?  Probably not but there has to be some lack of communication in there as well.  

Is what's being done in regard to him and his future based on where's he currently at the right move?  Yes.  

So I say let him be rightfully frustrated.  If he wants to express himself in what seem like a way that's not overly constructive, so be it.  Move forward the best you can from where you're at and hope that you can repair the damage enough to make the player productive for the next five years you have him.  

And let's remind ourselves of that.  He still has five years of club control and the Angels have an open corner OF spot for 2024 with almost nothing in the minors besides him who could fill that spot.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

I'm not sure you call a guy up at the age of 21 without him getting regular game reps if they felt like that was necessary for him.  It clearly wasn't a focal point they felt was needed.  

And they wouldn't have called him up if they weren't confident he was doing everything he'd been asked from a development standpoint.  

So he goes from another regime calling him up to fail.  To a change in regime that might have had him focusing on different things.  To discord between the leadership on the field vs. the FO where what he was being told in the minor might have been different than in the majors.   All the while not seeing results at the major league level doing what was asked of him and actually seeing his numbers slide in AAA as well.  And I would imagine that the narrative was 'hey, keep doing what you're doing and it'll work'.  Then to driveline in the offseason likely at the FO's request.  Then the Angels trade for a starting OFer.  Then they sign a 'clubhouse' defense only guy for just above league min to essentially take his shot at a roster spot.  

Should he have used social media for some veiled protest to vent his frustration?  Probably not but there has to be some lack of communication in there as well.  

Is what's being done in regard to him and his future based on where's he currently at the right move?  Yes.  

So I say let him be rightfully frustrated.  If he wants to express himself in what seem like a way that's not overly constructive, so be it.  Move forward the best you can from where you're at and hope that you can repair the damage enough to make the player productive for the next five years you have him.  

And let's remind ourselves of that.  He still has five years of club control and the Angels have an open corner OF spot for 2024 with almost nothing in the minors besides him who could fill that spot.  

Perhaps Eppler's most questionable move was calling up Jo Adell in 2020, when he was clearly not ready fundamentally. Still, the fact that they called him up is a validation of the work Adell had been doing up to that point. To me this speaks to some serious issues in the Angels development pipeline rather than anything about Jo Adell. 

[Taylor]

18 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Perhaps Eppler's most questionable move was calling up Jo Adell in 2020, when he was clearly not ready fundamentally. Still, the fact that they called him up is a validation of the work Adell had been doing up to that point. To me this speaks to some serious issues in the Angels development pipeline rather than anything about Jo Adell. 

So you're saying it's not because he owns a BLM T-shirt or because he celebrated a game-winning HR once?

[Docwaukee]

18 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Perhaps Eppler's most questionable move was calling up Jo Adell in 2020, when he was clearly not ready fundamentally. Still, the fact that they called him up is a validation of the work Adell had been doing up to that point. To me this speaks to some serious issues in the Angels development pipeline rather than anything about Jo Adell. 

That's what I'm saying.  I don't know how it could have been more obvious that he was going to struggle.  And if what they saw made them think he was going to succeed then they really had no clue.  That move was probably most indicative of one of Eppler's biggest flaws. 

Who really developed in the minors under Eppler's regime?   Walsh?  You could argue other but all them had seriously struggled upon call up.  Guys like Marsh, Thaiss, Ward, Canning, Suarez, Rengifo etc.  Those guys and other just not ready.  

We've seen a lot more progression from many more players since Minasian took over.  And I'm gonna speculate that we're gonna see even more from the system this year.  Especially from several guys who were part of the previous group's recruitment.  You can kinda tell from some of the numbers who was being broken down so they could be built back up.  

 

[Inside Pitch]

21 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Perhaps Eppler's most questionable move was calling up Jo Adell in 2020, when he was clearly not ready fundamentally. Still, the fact that they called him up is a validation of the work Adell had been doing up to that point. To me this speaks to some serious issues in the Angels development pipeline rather than anything about Jo Adell. 

For me it is, far and away so. 

I remember the clamor from people to bring him up based on how he fared in ST facing Low A pitchers, a throwback to the Taylor Lindsey hysteria a few years before. In some ways it showed how much faith they had in his talent, but good lord did they underestimate the divide between AAA and MLB and his ability to adapt at the highest level.  IMHO the refusal to keep him in a league long enough for the rest of the league to adjust to him may have been the biggest mistake they made -- and they made it multiple times.  Worst of all, they lost a full season of control in what was a shortened season.  That part STILL chaps me.

Canning, Suarez...  They too were rushed to their detriment.  Thankfully Suarez seems to have survived it relatively unscathed -- he's also the least talented of the three which is a bit annoying.

[Docwaukee]

3 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Canning, Suarez...  They too were rushed to their detriment.  Thankfully Suarez seems to have survived it relatively unscathed -- he's also the least talented of the three which is a bit annoying.

It seems to be a theme.  Unprepared to perform well in the majors.  To me, development isn't just making the player do better at whatever level they're at but helping them acquire the skills they're eventually going to need at the big league level.  Granted, a bunch of the braves prospects have been way more talented in general, but you look at orgs like them, the Cards, the Dogs, Guardians and the Astros.  Their players contribute from day one.  They aren't all a finished product but damn if they don't turn the right keys and unlock shit so much better than others.  

And it's not like they're doing it with high first round picks.  I'm using the braves because that's where Perry is from so let's hope it wore off but Harris and Grissom and Riley and Strider and Soroka etc.  

I always laugh when we hindsight the draft and go a few picks down from where we drafted for the guy we should have taken.  There was the Thaiss vs. Will Smith argument.  Do you think Smith would be as good had he come up through the Angel's system?  

[Second Base]

Also, I think if you're wondering what Jo's trade value is right now....as a general gauge, refer to the Syndergaard-Moniak swap. I think if they shopped him, you could get a solid back end starter. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

27 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

I always laugh when we hindsight the draft and go a few picks down from where we drafted for the guy we should have taken.  There was the Thaiss vs. Will Smith argument.  Do you think Smith would be as good had he come up through the Angel's system?  

Well that is the question, isnt it....

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, Trendon said:

It really makes you wonder why he wasn’t doing that in 2020 and 2021.

In 2020 I pretty much didn't see any of the workouts anyone was doing. Because of covid, I didn't go to the road games and I showed up to the home games about 45 minutes before first pitch.

And he was in the minors for a lot of 2021. I can't say i was paying that much attention to what he was doing defensively when he was up for the last two months of 2021 because it was Ohtani-mania all the time.

[BTH]

8 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

In 2020 I pretty much didn't see any of the workouts anyone was doing. Because of covid, I didn't go to the road games and I showed up to the home games about 45 minutes before first pitch.

And he was in the minors for a lot of 2021. I can't say i was paying that much attention to what he was doing defensively when he was up for the last two months of 2021 because it was Ohtani-mania all the time.

Yeah, it makes sense that his work was more visible to you last season than it was in 2020 and 2021.

I still wonder if the change from Maddon to Nevin caused a change in his pre-game practice.

This article from Sam Blum comes to mind…

https://theathletic.com/3658620/2022/10/04/angels-manager-phil-nevin-interim/?source=user_shared_article

[ThisismineScios]

32 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Also, I think if you're wondering what Jo's trade value is right now....as a general gauge, refer to the Syndergaard-Moniak swap. I think if they shopped him, you could get a solid back end starter. 

I actually believe it's more like Marsh. I know people don't believe the same, but Marsh is older than Adell, has less potential offensively, and isn't as fast. Marsh was essentially a young defensive whiz who showed some power potential. Adell's ceiling is still higher, even though Marsh has a useful skill right now. They could get a useful player for him from a team not yet looking to compete (Detroit, Miami, Pitt, KC, Colorado?)

Btw, if I'm Colorado or Detroit I would absolutely take a chance on Adell. He fits their timeline better and they can offload a guy with 2 years left. 

[Docwaukee]

9 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

I actually believe it's more like Marsh. I know people don't believe the same, but Marsh is older than Adell, has less potential offensively, and isn't as fast. Marsh was essentially a young defensive whiz who showed some power potential. Adell's ceiling is still higher, even though Marsh has a useful skill right now. They could get a useful player for him from a team not yet looking to compete (Detroit, Miami, Pitt, KC, Colorado?)

Btw, if I'm Colorado or Detroit I would absolutely take a chance on Adell. He fits their timeline better and they can offload a guy with 2 years left. 

that CF defensive value made/makes marsh so much more valuable.  Adell is all bat whereas even if the bat doesn't fully develop for marsh he's still a very valuable player at a premium defensive position.  

The odds of Adell reaching his absolute ceiling have come down so far in the last two years it's crazy.  

And Moniak also has the defensive value that Adell doesn't and never will.  Both Marsh and Moniak are at worst 4th OFers.  

Adell has boom or complete bust trade value with more of the latter than the former at this point.  He's a project with 1 option left and he's not good enough defensively to stash on a roster.  

The Angels have one advantage in keeping him.  They know what they've done with him.  They have a different jumping off point to try and get him better.  Another team would need a fair amount of time and they just don't have it before they have to decide to keep him on the major league roster and gut out his growing pain.  

Of course Colorado or Detroit would take a chance on him but they're not gonna give up anything of significant value to do that.  If he were worth a back end starter with a couple years of control and a reasonable salary, we'd already have that player.  

[Second Base]

22 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

I actually believe it's more like Marsh. I know people don't believe the same, but Marsh is older than Adell, has less potential offensively, and isn't as fast. Marsh was essentially a young defensive whiz who showed some power potential. Adell's ceiling is still higher, even though Marsh has a useful skill right now. They could get a useful player for him from a team not yet looking to compete (Detroit, Miami, Pitt, KC, Colorado?)

Btw, if I'm Colorado or Detroit I would absolutely take a chance on Adell. He fits their timeline better and they can offload a guy with 2 years left. 

Marsh is really liked in the dugout and is a very good defender. And offensively, his upside is comparable to Adell's. At worst, Brandon is a decent starting CF for a few years. Adell is dysfunctional in the outfield right now, and clueless at the plate. At worst, he's depth fodder. 

Because of their floor difference, I don't think there's much of a comparison at all.

[Second Base]

3 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

that CF defensive value made/makes marsh so much more valuable.  Adell is all bat whereas even if the bat doesn't fully develop for marsh he's still a very valuable player at a premium defensive position.  

The odds of Adell reaching his absolute ceiling have come down so far in the last two years it's crazy.  

And Moniak also has the defensive value that Adell doesn't and never will.  Both Marsh and Moniak are at worst 4th OFers.  

Adell has boom or complete bust trade value with more of the latter than the former at this point.  He's a project with 1 option left and he's not good enough defensively to stash on a roster.  

The Angels have one advantage in keeping him.  They know what they've done with him.  They have a different jumping off point to try and get him better.  Another team would need a fair amount of time and they just don't have it before they have to decide to keep him on the major league roster and gut out his growing pain.  

Of course Colorado or Detroit would take a chance on him but they're not gonna give up anything of significant value to do that.  If he were worth a back end starter with a couple years of control and a reasonable salary, we'd already have that player.  

All good points. You changed my mind. Moniak likely does have greater value than Adell right now. 

[cals]

2 hours ago, Taylor said:

So you're saying it's not because he owns a BLM T-shirt or because he celebrated a game-winning HR once?

Sometimes I think your whole goal is to get punched.

[Second Base]

2 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Perhaps Eppler's most questionable move was calling up Jo Adell in 2020, when he was clearly not ready fundamentally. Still, the fact that they called him up is a validation of the work Adell had been doing up to that point. To me this speaks to some serious issues in the Angels development pipeline rather than anything about Jo Adell. 

Every player is responsible for his own career. That's the way it works. What was Jo supposed to do? "Oh, uh sorry Mr. Eppler, I'm not ready for my dreams to come true. Promote somebody else." 

Was it a mistake on Billy's part? Yeah. It was. But Billy, nor Perry are responsible for Jo Adell sucking in the majors. That's on Jo, and no one else. 

[cals]

1 hour ago, Second Base said:

Every player is responsible for his own career. That's the way it works. What was Jo supposed to do? "Oh, uh sorry Mr. Eppler, I'm not ready for my dreams to come true. Promote somebody else." 

Was it a mistake on Billy's part? Yeah. It was. But Billy, nor Perry are responsible for Jo Adell sucking in the majors. That's on Jo, and no one else. 

“It was mostly Maddon.”

- Angelswin Main Board “Cool Kids Clique” 2022

[Angelsfan1984]

2 hours ago, cals said:

Sometimes I think your hole goal is to get punched.

-Trevor bauer 2021

Fixed

[cals]

14 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

Fixed

[floplag]

9 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

You can’t deal with anyone saying you make stupid points on the internet.  I don’t think you’re the one to judge anyone’s maturity.  

Define irony... lol 

[ukyah]

On 1/13/2023 at 6:08 PM, Taylor said:

It's interesting that some of the folks criticizing Adell for being immature and self-focused are the same ones who want the Angels to go after Trevor Bauer.

for my part, i'm not criticizing adell for anything. i'm just voicing my somewhat informed outsider's perspective.

[Second Base]

50 minutes ago, cals said:

“It was mostly Maddon.”

- Angelswin Main Board “Cool Kids Clique” 2022

Yeah I've noticed that. People will praise and defend Eppler and Perry until it doesn't fit their narrative at which time they'll turn faster than a 2B on a 6-4-3. 

If Mike Trout didn't perform, it would be his fault. The same with Shohei, the same with every player. This doesn't suddenly change because it's Jo Adell. 

[cals]

1 minute ago, Second Base said:

Yeah I've noticed that. People will praise and defend Eppler and Perry until it doesn't fit their narrative at which time they'll turn faster than a 2B on a 6-4-3. 

If Mike Trout didn't perform, it would be his fault. The same with Shohei, the same with every player. This doesn't suddenly change because it's Jo Adell. 

8 years ago if Dipoto wanted to try hooking up with a dude, he could have come here and had his pick of the litter.  

Flash forward like a year and they’re all giggling and saying he ain’t cute no more and shit like that.  

Same with Eppler.  

Same with Ausmus.  

Will be same with Fatassian.  Will be same with Nevin.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

[UndertheHalo]

54 minutes ago, floplag said:

Define irony... lol 

[ThisismineScios]

4 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

that CF defensive value made/makes marsh so much more valuable.  Adell is all bat whereas even if the bat doesn't fully develop for marsh he's still a very valuable player at a premium defensive position.  

The odds of Adell reaching his absolute ceiling have come down so far in the last two years it's crazy.  

And Moniak also has the defensive value that Adell doesn't and never will.  Both Marsh and Moniak are at worst 4th OFers.  

Adell has boom or complete bust trade value with more of the latter than the former at this point.  He's a project with 1 option left and he's not good enough defensively to stash on a roster.  

The Angels have one advantage in keeping him.  They know what they've done with him.  They have a different jumping off point to try and get him better.  Another team would need a fair amount of time and they just don't have it before they have to decide to keep him on the major league roster and gut out his growing pain.  

Of course Colorado or Detroit would take a chance on him but they're not gonna give up anything of significant value to do that.  If he were worth a back end starter with a couple years of control and a reasonable salary, we'd already have that player.  

Yeah, to clarify:

I don't believe Adell has tremendous value on the open market. I don't think he can be the centerpiece of a trade, or the guy in the trade alone. However, I do believe he adds value to a package for certain teams. Similar value to Marsh, but definitely in a different way. I know Marsh has a useful skill right now; Adell does not. You can't DH him or put him in the field. 

But he's a lotto ticket. And ultimately if I'm Detroit, Colorado, or even Miami, I might consider trying it. For a salary dump, or as part of a bigger package. 

Nobody will; the only way he gets moved is a fresh start for fresh start situation. And the Angels are better served hanging onto him to see what happens.