Adellgate (Adell unhappy?)

[cals]

8 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

Yeah, to clarify:

I don't believe Adell has tremendous value on the open market. I don't think he can be the centerpiece of a trade, or the guy in the trade alone. However, I do believe he adds value to a package for certain teams. Similar value to Marsh, but definitely in a different way. I know Marsh has a useful skill right now; Adell does not. You can't DH him or put him in the field. 

But he's a lotto ticket. And ultimately if I'm Detroit, Colorado, or even Miami, I might consider trying it. For a salary dump, or as part of a bigger package. 

Nobody will; the only way he gets moved is a fresh start for fresh start situation. And the Angels are better served hanging onto him to see what happens. 

The Angels have such a storied history of failed high end prospects, the next moneyball move could just be to wait until the Angels get frustrated and say “I guess we were wrong again” and then acquire that player for peanuts, apply their proper coaching and player advancement system and get free superstars.

[Second Base]

8 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

Yeah, to clarify:

I don't believe Adell has tremendous value on the open market. I don't think he can be the centerpiece of a trade, or the guy in the trade alone. However, I do believe he adds value to a package for certain teams. Similar value to Marsh, but definitely in a different way. I know Marsh has a useful skill right now; Adell does not. You can't DH him or put him in the field. 

But he's a lotto ticket. And ultimately if I'm Detroit, Colorado, or even Miami, I might consider trying it. For a salary dump, or as part of a bigger package. 

Nobody will; the only way he gets moved is a fresh start for fresh start situation. And the Angels are better served hanging onto him to see what happens. 

From what I understand, very early in the offseason, there were Adell-Detroit discussions. Obviously nothing came to pass there, and Detroit really doesn't have anything the Angels would really want at this stage of free agency that would be with giving up on the lotto ticket that is Adell.

[Docwaukee]

25 minutes ago, cals said:

8 years ago if Dipoto wanted to try hooking up with a dude, he could have come here and had his pick of the litter.  

Flash forward like a year and they’re all giggling and saying he ain’t cute no more and shit like that.  

Same with Eppler.  

Same with Ausmus.  

Will be same with Fatassian.  Will be same with Nevin.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

I still think Ausmus got a raw deal and actually did a pretty good job considering the circumstances.   He was given Cody Allen, Trevor Cahill, Matt Harvey, Justin Bour, Jonathan Lucroy, Zack Cozart, Albert Pujols, and a whole bunch of other scrubs.  He also had Doug White trying to speak in tongues to the pitching staff.   And one of the players died halfway through the season.   After which the team rallied and somehow won 9 of 12 to run their record to 54-49.  I think they were only 4 or maybe 5 games back of the WC.  Then they fell apart unfortunately.  But to have that team in that spot at that point in the season was pretty impressive actually considering the talent and circumstances. 

Many of us hated JD much earlier than that. 

Some of us hated Maddon from the second he joined the team

I liked Eppler but in retro he wasn't great at a couple of key things.  Free agents and the Angels development system.  But this franchise would have been circling the drain without many of the things he put in place that Minasian has been able to build on. 

We'll see how good Minasian is this year.  So far he hasn't had the reigns until now.  But he's done some positive things throughout the org to get them up to speed at the lower levels.   

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, cals said:

The Angels have such a storied history of failed high end prospects, the next moneyball move could just be to wait until the Angels get frustrated and say “I guess we were wrong again” and then acquire that player for peanuts, apply their proper coaching and player advancement system and get free superstars.

which failed prospects have gone on to superstar careers elsewhere?

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, ThisismineScios said:

Similar value to Marsh

the one part I just can't agree with.  The rest of what you mentioned is fine.  If we could have gotten Ohoppe for Adell, it would have happened.  And it's because of the floor.  Adell's entire foundation is jacked right now and they've got a year to fix it.  

[Pancake Bear]

2 hours ago, cals said:

8 years ago if Dipoto wanted to try hooking up with a dude, he could have come here and had his pick of the litter.  

Flash forward like a year and they’re all giggling and saying he ain’t cute no more and shit like that.  

Same with Eppler.  

Same with Ausmus.  

Will be same with Fatassian.  Will be same with Nevin.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

Some of those guys have had time make their shortcomings more evident than they were at the time. Maddon might as well have titled his book, "I'm Stuck in the Past". Dipoto has things he's better at and things he's worse at.

One common denominator through a lot of the Mike Trout era in which the team has mostly sucked is that the vast majority of those seasons involved a front office and coaching staff at odds. The Scioscia coaching staff had varying degrees of problems with Dipoto and later Eppler.

Eppler got one shot at his own guy with Ausmus and it didn't work out. In Ausmus' defense, we just didn't have enough good players that season. Skaggs' death did Ausmus no favors either. Whatever anyone thinks of Ausmus, he never really had much of a shot to succeed, imo. 

Maddon was clearly not Eppler's pick, and while Minasian said all the right things, it has become obvious since then that there was a lot of friction behind the scenes. I'm not sure I think Nevin is the guy to take us forward, but one thing in his favor is apparently he's Minasian's (interim) guy. If Minasian makes it past the new owners, it'll be interesting to see if he sticks with Nevin or not.

So, basically, since Trout came up full time, we've had 1.5 seasons in which the front office and coaches were all on the same page out of 11. That's it. 

[Docwaukee]

45 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

One common denominator through a lot of the Mike Trout era in which the team has mostly sucked is that the vast majority of those seasons involved a front office and coaching staff at odds.

an unconventional leadership structure started with Reagins.  And even with there being questions of who was really in charge between the GM and Manager, Arte would occasionally (or more than we know) grab the wheel and jerk the car toward the shiny pretty lights coming from the other side of the road.   It's been like this 20 year road trip to nowhere with Trout in the way way back of the wagon wanting to know if we're they're yet.  Someone's holding a map.  Someone else has the wheel.  And Shohei's thinking he might just tuck and roll his way out at the next red light.  

Dammit!  We forgot the prospects.  

Just keep going.  We'll grab a couple homeless guys on the way.  

[Inside Pitch]

8 hours ago, Second Base said:

Yeah I've noticed that. People will praise and defend Eppler and Perry until it doesn't fit their narrative at which time they'll turn faster than a 2B on a 6-4-3.

The nice thing about about the site's search engine is that people can always go back and see what people have previously said/where they stood on issues. As far as praising or defending goes, there are situations were praise is merited and times when criticism is valid.

Eppler deserves a ton of credit for what he was able to do given what he inherited and what the financial limitations were, but he should also wear his mistakes. I've always believed he didn't get enough credit for finding waiver wire value and too much heat for his FA follies, but at the same time moves like Harvey and Allen made me retch at hello. The Cozart signing catches a ton of shit but I classify him the same way I do DMac whenever people talk about busted prospects -- injuries happen.  It's not like he came to Anaheim with a history of injuries beyond the ACL tear and that happened on a weird slip at 1B on the bag.  

I've had a much harder time forming an opinion on Minasian than I did Eppler or JD.  I've loved his hires, mostly disagreed with his FA choices prior to this season, the big exception being Quintana. Year one seemed like the Angels version of "lets put the band back together".  He actively spent the winter trying to acquire guys Maddon had ties to. Year two seemed like he spent the winter trying to again get Maddon the parts he requested at the end of 21, albeit he seemingly signed guys he felt fit what Maddon wanted. It went better but the lack of additions position player wise led to failure.  It's been a much different off-season this year.  Much more well rounded and one more in line with what you'd expect from a team employing Alex Tamin. 

We'll see how it all goes but I'll go on record now.  He's got nobody to blame but himself if it doesn't work this year, and having said that, IMO it's been the best offseason since 2004 despite the lack of flashy moves... Everything seemingly filled a need/made some sense.  Anderson and Drury wouldn't have been my first choice but at least I can understand the reasoning behind the moves and trust they have a ton more information. I hope it all works and he gets to see the fourth year of his deal.  Much like Eppler, there's been a lot of infrastructure work done under his watch and IMO significantly better front office/developmental additions.  Hopefully it finally pays off in a winning season.

At least I know the defensive positioning is no longer a problem.

 

[cals]

6 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

which failed prospects have gone on to superstar careers elsewhere?

You mean other than Tom Brunansky, Dante Bichette and Bobby Jenks? 

[Stradling]

6 minutes ago, cals said:

You mean other than Tom Brunansky, Dante Bichette and Bobby Jenks? 

Maybe that’s what teams are doing, they are waiting around until the Angels give up on a prospect. These teams are being patient as you can see since the most recent example was released 20 years ago. 

[Stradling]

I really like Dante Bichette. Trading him for Dave Parker is the worst trade this team has made. Maybe the second worst (Vernon Wells) 

[DMVol]

9 hours ago, Pancake Bear said:

….If Minasian makes it past the new owners, it'll be interesting to see if he sticks with Nevin or not.

If Minasian makes it past the new owners, it probably means Nevin has done a good job….

[T.G.]

9 minutes ago, DMVol said:

If Minasian makes it past the new owners, it probably means Nevis has done a good job….

Nevis is Minasian's secret weapon. 

[Second Base]

7 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

an unconventional leadership structure started with Reagins.  And even with there being questions of who was really in charge between the GM and Manager, Arte would occasionally (or more than we know) grab the wheel and jerk the car toward the shiny pretty lights coming from the other side of the road.   It's been like this 20 year road trip to nowhere with Trout in the way way back of the wagon wanting to know if we're they're yet.  Someone's holding a map.  Someone else has the wheel.  And Shohei's thinking he might just tuck and roll his way out at the next red light.  

Dammit!  We forgot the prospects.  

Just keep going.  We'll grab a couple homeless guys on the way.  

A very underrated post. Maybe people just haven't read it yet. Great, great post. 

[DMVol]

1 hour ago, T.G. said:

Nevis is Minasian's secret weapon. 

Spellcheck…

[Docwaukee]

4 hours ago, cals said:

You mean other than Tom Brunansky, Dante Bichette and Bobby Jenks? 

That is quite the star studded list with Bichette's 9 career WAR, Brunansky's 106 OPS+, and Jenks 6 qualified seasons.  We could've really used those guys help a few decades ago.

[cals]

2 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

That is quite the star studded list with Bichette's 9 career WAR, Brunansky's 106 OPS+, and Jenks 6 qualified seasons.  We could've really used those guys help a few decades ago.

I specifically only mentioned the tier 2 and 3 guys.  I didn’t think I’d need to mention the top prospects they lost.

[Docwaukee]

4 minutes ago, cals said:

I specifically only mentioned the tier 2 and 3 guys.  I didn’t think I’d need to mention the top prospects they lost.

that became superstars?  which ones?  

[CaliAngel]

Adell sucks. I gave him a chance because so many people around here kissed his ass, but after *actually watching him* the past couple seasons, the proof has been on the field.

He swings through fastballs down the pipe, too many K's, you can't rely on him with a bat. He biffs basic plays in the outfield, he can't read the ball, he's a liability out there. 

Some want to keep giving him "time" to "work it out," but nobody has been ever able to say when do we pull the plug? When is enough, enough?

I say it was after we gave him full time starter and we saw zero improvement.

On 1/12/2023 at 9:21 PM, Warfarin said:

I think with Adell, it is that people had such high hopes for him based on his prospect ratings (top 10 prospect in baseball not too long ago).  I think that amplifies the disappointment of him not panning out so far

Not me.

I had no preconceived notions about Adell, gave him a fair chance to see how he could perform, and he's still been a dissapointment.

I agree with what other posters on this board have said, if he thinks he should be anywhere else than where he is now, he needs to look at his stats and face reality.

[cals]

11 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

that became superstars?  which ones?  

Cmon man, I don’t need to tell you.  Now you’re just trying to mess with me.

[Docwaukee]

3 minutes ago, cals said:

Cmon man, I don’t need to tell you.  Now you’re just trying to mess with me.

oh now I get it.  There aren't any.  

[cals]

13 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

oh now I get it.  There aren't any.  

Don’t be a jerk.

[tdawg87]

17 minutes ago, cals said:

Don’t be a jerk.

[Taylor]

Eight pages and we still don't know if Adell is unhappy.

[Docwaukee]

30 minutes ago, cals said:

Don’t be a jerk.