Now what? What moves would you like to see them make.

[Blarg]

On 12/9/2022 at 6:39 PM, Trendon said:

I never said anything about them being 1.5 win players.

Even if they are like 0.5 win players, that’s better than Adell and Moniak (who are negative win players)

These still aren't players you want on the team, they are just better than the worst you had the previous season. That doesn't move the Angels into the win column. 

[Angelsfan1984]

30 minutes ago, totdprods said:

If money isn’t really an issue, I would sign Eovaldi or Bassitt. One more arm, especially a RHP with upper-half of the rotation talent, would really set us up nicely not just in the WC hunt, but as credible division contenders, and a rotation that could match up in the playoffs well with any. Also gives us rotation insurance if we lose Ohtani.

I just can’t get myself comfortable with the idea of a mega-contract for Swanson or Correa, and can’t imagine it would make affording Ohtani realistic. I’d rather commit to a stopgap - either Iglesias or Andrus by FA, or Kiner-Falefa or Rojas by trade - and hope Neto takes over next year, or pull the trigger for a SS such as Hoerner, Rodgers, Rosario, Adames, Arraez (as a 2B) as a much more cost-effective long-term option. Would have no problem even considering Neto in a potential deal.

tldr; Adding a strong #2-3 type SP would help us a lot more than an *expensive* SS. 

 

I agree, however thats all dependent on what you do with the pitching surplus. If you arent able to swap 1 a suarez or silseth type for an effective SS on the cheap then i think the high end SS makes more sense. That 2-3 pitcher will be pitching 25 ish times a year and that SS will be playing (fingers crossed) 150+ games. To me that is the greater impact given the difference in production from Eovaldi -> Suarez instead of a Correa/Swanson --> rengifo.

Just my 2 cents...however with inflation thats roughly a couple million dollars.

[Taylor]

I think this topic should be locked because Strad created another thread that is exactly the same thing. Like a sequel.

[OhtaniSan]

4 minutes ago, Taylor said:

I think this topic should be locked because Strad created another thread that is exactly the same thing. Like a sequel.

Sequels usually suck - just sayin

[BTH]

40 minutes ago, Blarg said:

These still aren't players you want on the team, they are just better than the worst you had the previous season. That doesn't move the Angels into the win column. 

It does when having over 10 negative win players moved the Angels into the loss column last season.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Trendon

[mmc]

27 minutes ago, Taylor said:

I think this topic should be locked because Strad created another thread that is exactly the same thing. Like a sequel.

I did lock it.  Apparently someone felt otherwise

[Taylor]

11 minutes ago, mmc said:

I did lock it.  Apparently someone felt otherwise

Blarg doesn't enjoy sharing mod powers with someone so much younger than him.

[totdprods]

1 hour ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

I agree, however thats all dependent on what you do with the pitching surplus. If you arent able to swap 1 a suarez or silseth type for an effective SS on the cheap then i think the high end SS makes more sense. That 2-3 pitcher will be pitching 25 ish times a year and that SS will be playing (fingers crossed) 150+ games. To me that is the greater impact given the difference in production from Eovaldi -> Suarez instead of a Correa/Swanson --> rengifo.

Just my 2 cents...however with inflation thats roughly a couple million dollars.

And what if that $25m+ SS gets hurt like  fellow $25m+ Rendon, Trout, Upton, Hamilton and Pujols did on the reg? I know we can’t expect that to happen, but we could probably sustain an injury to a Bassitt or an Eovaldi now much better than we could with a star SS. I also cringe saying it, but I feel like we’ve been a little lucky with the health of our current rotation crop and them not needing TJS. Call it PTSD from Heaney, Richards, Skaggs, etc all needing it at the same time it seemed, but it’s not lost on me that a perfect storm could happen again. Adding a SP just sets us up in many ways better than an expensive SS will. And again, I would think a major SS contract seriously burdens the team going forward whether they sign Ohtani or not.

I personally think the better, safer, more flexible route would be signing Eovaldi or Bassitt - far less years and money tied up (making it also much more realistic with new owners), provides some Ohtani insurance, reinforces a relatively unproven rotation, and then frees up the tolerability of moving a combo of Suarez, SP prospects, Rengifo, or SS prospects in a trade for a shortstop who won’t cost $250m+ on a very questionable deal.

My ideal scenario would be the Angels signing Bassitt, then the Cubs or Twins signing Swanson or (and?) Correa and the Angels grabbing Nico Hoerner or Luis Arraez (for 2B). 

Shore up the rotation with a more proven (and balanced) arm. Acquire a controlled mid-infielder that immediately improves what we have without a crazy contract. We lose some youth and controllable talent in the trade, but ideally it’s nothing we can’t sustain given the glut of SP prospects we have at AA. It’s far more financially realistic and accessible.

Even if Arraez, Hoerner, or Rodgers are not available, I would think nabbing someone like Miguel Rojas, Isaiah Kiner-Falefa, or even Elvis Andrus or Jose Iglesias could still offer a shrewd, cheap stopgap that, paired with adding Eovaldi/Bassitt, do just as much as adding a $25m+ SS. Probably keeps you in the mix for buying up bullpen, outfield, and catching depth too. Maybe they even move quick enough and have the money to sign Eovaldi/Bassitt *and* someone like Lugo or Lorenzen on a cheap 1-year to replace someone like Suarez still too.

Edited December 12, 2022 by totdprods

[Docwaukee]

I like what Minasian has done so far.  I have said this for a couple years in a row and then they just stopped and didn't finish the team.  That said, the unfinished component in previous years left gaping holes.  I don't feel there are any catastrophic level holes on this team.  It's a pretty good team as is with holes that could use some upgrades in order to become a very good team.  We're in a much better spot right now than we've been in recent past.  

There are still some depth issues that can be solved on the cheap or by adding a couple of more expensive players to push existing starters into depth roles.  Namely, SS, SP, closer.  But even cheap options in those spots would help.  

I hope they don't leave things as is because there are certainly opportunities and it would feel disappointing if they were left unaddressed but I think they could be a mid 80's win team as is.  

The impact of what they've don't so far in terms of raising the floor cannot be emphasized enough.  It will have a tremendous impact with average health.  

[totdprods]

I assume Swanson makes around $25m AAV the way things are going, Correa probably $30m, maybe even $35m.

If Bassitt/Eovaldi run you around $20m, and you flip say Suarez/Rengifo (around $3m combined) for a Hoerner or Brendan Rodgers (around $2.5m) or Arraez ($5m) you are coming out to the same cost salary as Swanson or potentially $10m less than Correa - without years and years of commitment. 

That $10m might be enough to still grab Lorenzen/Lugo to replace Suarez, or a solid reliever like Knebel or Fullmer or Smith or Chafin with room for a back-up C still. I’d rather take that combo for ~~$30m in salary over one SS.

[bloodbrother]

Want nothing to do with Swanson on the kind of deal he'll command. Correa would be ideal, but that feels like wishful thinking. Already got Trout and Rendon making $35+ million a year, and assuming they extend Ohtani, that's a 3rd player making at least that much for them moving forward. Asking a lot to expect a team to have 4 players making well over $30M per

Trade or a short-term stop gap signing at SS seems like the most likely route

[Deek]

I continue to think that a return for Thor makes a lot of sense - for both sides... Another short-term deal would give the Angels long term flexibility and provides Noah another chance to prove his return to health - while pitching in a six-man rotation...

[Angelsfan1984]

30 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I assume Swanson makes around $25m AAV the way things are going, Correa probably $30m, maybe even $35m.

If Bassitt/Eovaldi run you around $20m, and you flip say Suarez/Rengifo (around $3m combined) for a Hoerner or Brendan Rodgers (around $2.5m) or Arraez ($5m) you are coming out to the same cost salary as Swanson or potentially $10m less than Correa - without years and years of commitment. 

That $10m might be enough to still grab Lorenzen/Lugo to replace Suarez, or a solid reliever like Knebel or Fullmer or Smith or Chafin with room for a back-up C still. I’d rather take that combo for ~~$30m in salary over one SS.

I agree with the spreading out of allocated funds. You cant assume injury with a FA, but i can see wanting to soften the blow if injury were to occur. 

Ultimately, the health of the organization and any organization for that matter assumes that all of your players are both health and performing at expected levels. For me, plugging into someone you can reasonably expect to perform at a particular level such as a correa type can solidify your lineup that much more. In all seriousness you dont expect Rendon situations to occur. He should be a cornerstone of the franchise and to this date he hasnt been. Lets say you sign bassit or eovaldi and they take up 15-20M annually but get blown out UCL's, now you're essentially in the same boat but you have a far less capable SS. The risk has to be worth the reward and i'd rather take my chances with Correa or Swanson (whom i definitely dont prefer) with Suarez picking up the pitching slack vs getting an Eovaldi hoping that Rengifo or fletcher can pull their weight. 

[Angelsfan1984]

8 minutes ago, bloodbrother said:

Want nothing to do with Swanson on the kind of deal he'll command. Correa would be ideal, but that feels like wishful thinking. Already got Trout and Rendon making $35+ million a year, and assuming they extend Ohtani, that's a 3rd player making at least that much for them moving forward. Asking a lot to expect a team to have 4 players making well over $30M per

Trade or a short-term stop gap signing at SS seems like the most likely route

Maybe Cohen has decided to buy 2 baseball teams. Its kind of like having 2 teams in 1 fantasy football league. Just ups your chances of winning that much more

[Torridd]

4 hours ago, totdprods said:

If money isn’t really an issue, I would sign Eovaldi or Bassitt. One more arm, especially a RHP with upper-half of the rotation talent, would really set us up nicely not just in the WC hunt, but as credible division contenders, and a rotation that could match up in the playoffs well with any. Also gives us rotation insurance if we lose Ohtani.

I just can’t get myself comfortable with the idea of a mega-contract for Swanson or Correa, and can’t imagine it would make affording Ohtani realistic. I’d rather commit to a stopgap - either Iglesias or Andrus by FA, or Kiner-Falefa or Rojas by trade - and hope Neto takes over next year, or pull the trigger for a SS such as Hoerner, Rodgers, Rosario, Adames, Arraez (as a 2B) as a much more cost-effective long-term option. Would have no problem even considering Neto in a potential deal.

tldr; Adding a strong #2-3 type SP would help us a lot more than an *expensive* SS. 

 

I don't agree with this, that is, I think an offensive SS would be more helpful than another starter. I'd like another starter but we're pretty strong there as opposed to our current shortstops who may or may not be capable. 

[Torridd]

1 hour ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

Maybe Cohen has decided to buy 2 baseball teams. Its kind of like having 2 teams in 1 fantasy football league. Just ups your chances of winning that much more

LOL! That would be maniacal!

[totdprods]

42 minutes ago, Torridd said:

I don't agree with this, that is, I think an offensive SS would be more helpful than another starter. I'd like another starter but we're pretty strong there as opposed to our current shortstops who may or may not be capable. 

Doing that improves our SS, and does nothing else for our rotation and leaves very little for bench, pen, and catcher - assuming we only have a big splash worth’s of money to spend. 

The SP+trade for IF route improves both rotation and offense, and should allow marginal depth moves to add to that too.

It seems like when we fix the offense, the rotation sucks, when we fix the rotation, the offense sucks, and the bullpen is a complete mystery.

what’s the difference between Hoerner, Arraez, Rodgers, + a Eovaldi vs. Correa/Swanson?

[Blarg]

4 hours ago, Trendon said:

It does when having over 10 negative win players moved the Angels into the loss column last season.

Maybe you aren't understanding putting players that are just barely league average isn't really a net gain. It's just treading water. I want this season to not be about being kinda league average. So those guys shouldn't be a part of the roster.

You can't have a 26 man roster of all superstars but I'd like to see the curve not bottom out so quickly from Trout and Ohtani. 

[TempeAngel]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:50 AM, Trendon said:

What do you think is a realistic trade for Hoerner?

I just don’t see the Cubs trading him, since he’s one of their few above average players with multiple years of control remaining.

I don't think the Cubs would trade Hoerner unless they sign Dansby Swanson. 

[Docwaukee]

2 hours ago, TempeAngel said:

I agree.

Ideally, the two bats can take a walk and have an OBP higher than the .312 league average. It's something our lineup needs. Even our new guys are not really on base guys who will take a walk.

Renfroe has a career .300 OBP.

Urshela is at .321.

Rengifo is at .294 career OBP.

Fletcher is at .297 and .288 OBP the past two years.

Stassi is at .295 career OBP.

Walsh was .269 last year. 

It is a blaring weakness in the construction of the team right now.

 

It's a bit of a concern but when you break it down more closely, it's not horrendous considering where most of the guys listed will bat.  

The avg obp for the 6-9 slots of the 2022 top 10 offenses was about .307.  The Angels was .251.  Toronto was an outlier at .337 and when you pull them out it was closer to .300.  

For spots 1-5 the league avg was .322.  And for 1-4 it was .325.  For 1-5, the halos were at .329 which ranks them 9th, and for 1-4 we're at .335 which is also 9th.  

Spot in batting order - League Avg, Angels, and rank.  top 10

1st - .319, .319, 14th, top 10 of .325-.379
2nd - .329, .359, 5th top 10 of .347-.379
3rd - .331, .337, 14th  top 10 of .343 - .376
4th - .320, .324, 17th top 10 of .334 - .378
5th - .307, .306, 17th top 10 of .318 - .335
6th - .304, .244, 30th.  top 10 of .315 - .349
7th - .298, .246, 30th.  top 10 of .307-.342
8th - .295, .264, 27th.  top 10 of .304 - .352
9th - .288, .253, 27th, top 10 of .299- .336

So overall for spots 6-9, the team was in last place at .251.  #29 on that list was the pirates at .270.  Top 10 .304 and up.  

I think it's reasonable to assume that between Ward, Trout, Ohtani, Rendon, Walsh, Renfroe and Urshela, The top 6 are taken care of enough to keep us in the top 10 (that's 7 guys for those 6 spots in the order).  

So it's those last three spots.  Which is basically both MIF spots and C where it could be a problem.  I think it's reasonable to project about a .300 obp from each of Rengifo and Fletcher.  I'd hope for more but staying conservative for the purpose of this still puts each of them somewhere between avg. and top 10.  And for C it's about whether we can get enough out of Stassi offensively until they feel comfortable handing the job to O'hoppe.  Or perhaps maybe Thaiss can take a small step offensively.   Plus, I think I'm ok with where we're at from the C position.  Would a better backup add some value?  Maybe if they're a stud on defense.  Otherwise, Thaiss can already hit like a backup.  So it's all about his defense.  

Where it could fall apart is if an OFer get's hurt.  Theoretically you could have Walsh move to LF with Urshela at 1b.  But then you're basically out of depth unless Thaiss starts hitting the ball and can fill in.  

The biggest risk right now though is MIF.  Sure Urshela can fill but he's not an everyday MIFer and realistically we need him elsewhere.  As it stands, even if Fletcher or Rengifo perform well and stay healthy you're still looking at probably 150+ ab from Soto/Velazquez.  And if one of them gets hurt or doesn't perform, you're basically stuck.  

So it's basically those bottom two spots in the order that could use some help.  Otherwise, I think they'll have a nice turn around from last year.  


 

 

[BTH]

1 hour ago, Blarg said:

Maybe you aren't understanding putting players that are just barely league average isn't really a net gain. It's just treading water. I want this season to not be about being kinda league average. So those guys shouldn't be a part of the roster.

You can't have a 26 man roster of all superstars but I'd like to see the curve not bottom out so quickly from Trout and Ohtani. 

I understand that it's just treading water, but the Angels are gonna have below-replacement-level players get at-bats unless they add more players.

Obviously, it'd be better if the players they add were quality players. But if they aren't, players that tread water are still better than players who sink.

[BTH]

1 hour ago, TempeAngel said:

I don't think the Cubs would trade Hoerner unless they sign Dansby Swanson. 

I don't think the Cubs would trade Hoerner even if they signed Dansby Swanson.

[Jason]

6 hours ago, Taylor said:

I think this topic should be locked because Strad created another thread that is exactly the same thing. Like a sequel.

Sometimes the sequels are better than the originals 

[Dtwncbad]

6 hours ago, Taylor said:

I think this topic should be locked because Strad created another thread that is exactly the same thing. Like a sequel.

You can say that again.

[Angelsfan1984]

46 minutes ago, Jason said:

Sometimes the sequels are better than the originals 

Ace Ventura 2 comes to mind.