Do the Angels really have 'no pitching'?

[sammyscioscia]

I know it's a bit of a cop out as a baseball fan to say the Angels have 'no pitching' and contend that as the major reason why we will remain middle of the pack and not contend yet again wasting another year of Trout. Many Twitter baseball fans, even some Angels fans as of last night say we still have no pitching 'as usual', is this really true though?  While we never went out and got a stud pitcher, we gained one internally in Ohtani and acquired a reliable arm in Cobb and potential sleeper stud in Quintana who has shown he might be on the right track. 

How do they feel so confident in trashing our pitching?  Well in my opinion, they simply must not be paying attention to our roster changes and have accepted that our record last year was a direct indicator of our pitching (which is somewhat true) and the fact we basically stood pat in terms of blockbuster moves, thus we will remain the status quo again this year. I think some of those fans are in for a little bit of a rude awakening this season.  If every pitcher remains relatively healthy and doesn't pull a Teheran (which is pretty uncommon) we are looking pretty strong.

If the rotation can step over the line from kind of bad last year to kind of good this year, that should be enough to make us tough division contenders.  The bullpen is probably going to be pedestrian, but has the potential (like many bullpens do) to exceed expectations, if that happens we are in good shape.  Also our defense can't be any worse than last season, so that's another benefit coming our way. 

I by no means expect us to win the division, but I do expect to see us threatening the WC standings at least.  We will be that annoying team that nobody expected to be so annoying.   

Is it a mistake for me to assume we will be in good shape this year pitching wise?  

[Don]

I think all of us as fans have a bit of a bad taste in our mouths from the last several years. The guys we’ve signed/traded for really haven’t worked out, and a lot of the guys we already had have underperformed or gotten injured. It’s understandable for most fans to be apprehensive at this point. 
That said, I think things look better on the pitching front this year than they have in several years. It looks like Ohtani is finally healthy and could be a true #1. I think real Bundy is closer to what he was in 2020 than what he was in Baltimore. Heaney should be a solid #3. Canning is a question mark, but he might be good for us. Quintana looks really good so far this spring. If all those guys come through and stay healthy we have a decent staff. Maybe not top five in the AL, but probably top ten, and that’s enough with our offense. Add in the fact that we finally have a legit closer in Iglesias, and I feel pretty good about this year on the pitching front. But I certainly don’t fault anybody that’s worried, because we’ve all talked ourselves into this before. But it feels different this year.

[sammyscioscia]

It feels different for quantifiable reasons, for me at least.

Most of my worries currently lie on some of our hitters, can some of our guys continue to hit like they did last season?  Is Walsh for real?

For once, my worries don't lie entirely on the pitching staff, and I think that is a major reason why I 'feel' better about this year.  One concern has been alleviated and I am allowed to worry about less-likely things happening, that's a hallmark of progress.

[Don]

All the numbers indicate Walsh is for real. His only issue will be having to share time with Pujols in my opinion.

[ScottT]

I think it could turn in a hurry. I thought that last year, but that was a wild year.

Ohtani, Bundy, Canning, Heaney can make a good rotation.  

I'm more worried about the bullpen. Bullpens are volatile. 

[ScottT]

20 minutes ago, Don said:

All the numbers indicate Walsh is for real. His only issue will be having to share time with Pujols in my opinion.

If Walsh hits, there will be no issue.  

[Pancake Bear]

We have no pitching until either:

- We sign a big name pitcher (a Cole, Bauer, etc,)

Or

- We start winning and the rotation proves it is above average

Simple as that. As fans, we can be optimistic, but until the pitching shows up, people have every right to doubt that the Angels pitching staff isn't total garbage. 

[ScottT]

The rotation can easily be above average .

The offense could be great.

The infield defense will be great.

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, ScottT said:

I think it could turn in a hurry. I thought that last year, but that was a wild year.

Ohtani, Bundy, Canning, Heaney can make a good rotation.  

I'm more worried about the bullpen. Bullpens are volatile. 

I personally think this bullpen is in bad shape after Iglesias and Mayers.

I hope Perry has been on the phone because of that.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

6 hours ago, ScottT said:

I think it could turn in a hurry. I thought that last year, but that was a wild year.

Ohtani, Bundy, Canning, Heaney can make a good rotation.  

I'm more worried about the bullpen. Bullpens are volatile. 

If needed Barria, Sandoval, Rodriguez, and Detmer may be added to shore up the Bullpen.

l keep reading and hearing, "Can Ohtani stay healthy?. Ohtani gets more press about remaining healthy after TJS. Well they knew when they signed him he had a stretched UCL. Almost any other pitcher recovering  from TJS doesn't get the level of concern he has gotten. I know he had knee surgery, but not from an injury but a split kneecap he was born with. Rosenthal said he expects Shohei to throw about 100 innings and be babied this season. Ohtani in an interview after his start on Sunday, he expects to make 30 starts this season.

PS: Darvish never got this much concern after he recovered from TJS. In fact TJS has become so common there are as many pitchers today pitching after TJS as not.

[oldguy]

7 hours ago, ScottT said:

I think it could turn in a hurry. I thought that last year, but that was a wild year.

Ohtani, Bundy, Canning, Heaney can make a good rotation.  

I'm more worried about the bullpen. Bullpens are volatile. 

Todays OC Register said that they are considering Rodriguez for the bullpen.  I'd love to see it!

[wopphil]

If healthy, the Angels have a very competent rotation. They have six guys who, collectively, should be able to give them league average innings. And it isn’t hard to envision a scenario where some or even most of those guys are better than league average. 

The bullpen is another story, but I guess more easily fixable during the season. 

[tdawg87]

The bullpen is definitely a concern, but when you consider the volatility of bullpens in general, most teams can say their bullpen is a concern every year. 

We added a legitimate closer, so the ridiculous blown save percentage last year should be improved prodigiously.

I mean, what would make the bullpen better? Bringing in more guys from the outside, or banking on improvement from the inside? 

We have some good pitchers in the pen. I think it's just as likely to be the team's strength as it is its weakness.

[Angel Oracle]

Bullpen guys to count on:           
Iglesias, Mayers

Next level: Claudio

Maybes based on ST: Faria, Pena

Next level down: Buttrey

Too many maybes, need one more 7th/8th inning guy, otherwise Iglesias and Mayers will be on fumes by the ASB.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[tdawg87]

5 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Bullpen guys to count on:           
Iglesias, Mayers

Next level: Claudio

Maybes based on ST: Faria, Pena

Next level down: Buttrey

Too many maybes, need one more 7th/8th inning guy, otherwise Iglesias and Mayers will be on fumes by the ASB.

 

 

Like the point I was making before, I think you just described every bullpen.

You can count on maybe 1-2 guys, generally, then after that it's about finding random guys who can get outs.

It isn't like a rotation, where you have your 5 (or 6) best pitchers currently available taking the mound every 4th day regardless of who they're facing. 

[NorCal Halo]

It was painful watching Buttrey against the Padres yesterday.

[Mark PT]

12 hours ago, sammyscioscia said:

I know it's a bit of a cop out as a baseball fan to say the Angels have 'no pitching' and contend that as the major reason why we will remain middle of the pack and not contend yet again wasting another year of Trout. Many Twitter baseball fans, even some Angels fans as of last night say we still have no pitching 'as usual', is this really true though?  While we never went out and got a stud pitcher, we gained one internally in Ohtani and acquired a reliable arm in Cobb and potential sleeper stud in Quintana who has shown he might be on the right track. 

How do they feel so confident in trashing our pitching?  Well in my opinion, they simply must not be paying attention to our roster changes and have accepted that our record last year was a direct indicator of our pitching (which is somewhat true) and the fact we basically stood pat in terms of blockbuster moves, thus we will remain the status quo again this year. I think some of those fans are in for a little bit of a rude awakening this season.  If every pitcher remains relatively healthy and doesn't pull a Teheran (which is pretty uncommon) we are looking pretty strong.

If the rotation can step over the line from kind of bad last year to kind of good this year, that should be enough to make us tough division contenders.  The bullpen is probably going to be pedestrian, but has the potential (like many bullpens do) to exceed expectations, if that happens we are in good shape.  Also our defense can't be any worse than last season, so that's another benefit coming our way. 

I by no means expect us to win the division, but I do expect to see us threatening the WC standings at least.  We will be that annoying team that nobody expected to be so annoying.   

Is it a mistake for me to assume we will be in good shape this year pitching wise?  

You are right, the bullpen is key and all these guys have had trouble throwing strikes. If this continues we are a below .500 team, if they improve then we can win 80-90 games. The lack of a true ace (hopefully Ohtani can develop into this role) prevents this team from competing against elite teams and spells doom in the playoffs.

[Stradling]

AJ's breakdown of teams winning it all in the last 15 years and where their pitchers rank as far as being an Ace should be required reading.  

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

Like the point I was making before, I think you just described every bullpen.

You can count on maybe 1-2 guys, generally, then after that it's about finding random guys who can get outs.

It isn't like a rotation, where you have your 5 (or 6) best pitchers currently available taking the mound every 4th day regardless of who they're facing. 

I get that, but don’t most contenders have three reliable guys at the start of the season, to prevent burning out the other two?

[Dtwncbad]

It is time for all of these conversations to yield to what happens on the field.

It’s showtime.  Let’s see what this staff does and either congratulate the front office for how they operated or wreck them for being wrong.

[Warfarin]

7 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

The bullpen is definitely a concern, but when you consider the volatility of bullpens in general, most teams can say their bullpen is a concern every year. 

We added a legitimate closer, so the ridiculous blown save percentage last year should be improved prodigiously.

I mean, what would make the bullpen better? Bringing in more guys from the outside, or banking on improvement from the inside? 

We have some good pitchers in the pen. I think it's just as likely to be the team's strength as it is its weakness.

This.  And you see it happen all the time - teams who have great bullpens one year, then suddenly one or two key guys struggle and their bullpen is subpar.

Look at the Dodgers.  They had a shutdown pen for a few years, then Jansen started declining and they struggled mightily to find good options, which is why they ultimately got bounced from the 2019 NLDS, as they had to rely on Kershaw to try to win game 5 for them out of the pen.

Bullpens are the most volatile components of any team.  If Iglesias pitches like he is capable, Buttrey recaptures his form, and Mayers pitches like he did last year, we're rather golden.  But if one or more of those guys struggle, or no other legit option steps up, then we're in trouble.  Just like the rest of the league - highly dependent on a few guys, of whom most are dependent one one strong pitch and one decent pitch.  Hence the volatility.

[totdprods]

I'm expecting there to be some interesting moves to address the pen, especially through the first month. 

With AAA being delayed and a surprising amount of healthy MLB-ready SPs, I do think we will see the pen staffed by guys who we'd think should be starters. Also to consider is the fact starters will have their innings ramped up significantly after 2020's weirdness. 

I'm sticking to a theory that we will see most of the guys like Barria, Sandoval, Rodriguez, perhaps even Suarez and Detmers, get quite a few relief appearances, especially early in the year. Would not be surprised if the six-man rotation winds up being more of an eight-man tandem rotation even. Keeps the 'relievers' more stretched out in the 40-50 pitch range, keeps the main starters able to be yanked after 4-5 innings or third time through, and could keep the high-lev arms a little more fresh. They can keep guys like Suarez and Peters stretched out at the alt. site in the event an emergency SP is actually needed, but the pen should have enough depth and length to it that a bullpen game or two shouldn't be too taxing.

Something like...

• Bundy
• Heaney
• Canning/RP(Sandoval?)
• Cobb/RP (Rodriguez? Faria? Guerra? Slegers?)
• Quintana
• Ohtani/RP (Barria?)

Guys like Bundy, Heaney, and Quintana should be strong enough to go 6-7 innings fairly regularly, but guys like Canning, Cobb, and Ohtani will have durability/effectiveness questions. Pair them up with another SP in the pen capable of going 2-3 innings. Keeps everyone on something of a rotation. Could really mess with opposing lineups.

Once AAA gets going, ideally some of the question mark SPs have stabilized (Cobb?) into a true 6-7 IP SP, and perhaps a reliever or two has healed up (Pena, Slegers) or been claimed or pitched well, and the Angels can option one or two of the SP relievers back to the AAA rotation to be stretched out for depth.

[Angel Oracle]

Totdprods just posted what I’ve been thinking.

Ohtani and Canning are the two most likely to have pitch counts monitored in April, although Canning did throw 77 pitches yesterday with one start still to go.

Barria acts as one guy’s tandem reliever, and Sandoval acts as the other tandem reliever.

Cuts down the number of relievers needed on those nights.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[totdprods]

Baseball has been sort of trending towards this anyways...look at openers and the reliance on high-lev relievers. 

In 2019, Eppler's farm system had a ridiculous numbers of SPs in A/A+ and even AA. Almost every night, two SPs pitched, each going 4-5 innings. 

Most of those guys are still around too. I could see guys like Aaron Hernandez, Robinson Pina, Steward Aquino, Andrew Wantz, Austin Warren, Denny Brady all being guys who come up and wind up being hybrid SP/RP types who have been developed to pitch through a line-up once or twice, max, and then tap out for someone else to do the same.

If this tandem SP can work for 6 or 7 innings, maybe you can get by using only three or four pitchers in a game. Two tandems and a high-lev, or an opener, a tandem SP, a reliever, and a high-lev to close the game. 

There will always be exceptions, but I think the SP, RP, set-up, closer roles are going to become antiquated as the league works to lessen the number of pitching changes, protect arms, and speed up service clocks for players. Instead you'll see true one-inning relievers, multi-inning relievers/tandem starters, high-lev arms, and true starters as the new designations. You'll see more instances of guys like Detmers or Crochet or Canning make the bigs almost right out of college, and guys like Hector Yan or Luis Patino or other very young, 20-21 year old arms come up faster than usual.

Edited March 23, 2021 by totdprods

[Docwaukee]

this thread title reminds me of that scene from Hell or High Water.  

'we don't sell no goddam trout!.  T-bone steaks.  So either you don't want the corn on the cob or you don't want the green bean.'  

'so what don't you want?'