How much longer will it be before fans can be confident going into the season that we are a playoff team?

[Jason]

53 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

We're all pissed we cant get Trout to the playoffs.

But I honestly think that making that the focus would hurt the team more than help it. I think we should focus on the next core, so that we dont try for another "pujols window"

Id rather build around adell and marsh (for example) with trout as the old vet, than to try for trout now... just because we arent a deep enough team now.

Thats just me

This makes sense but Adell and Marsh may be complete duds. Then what?

[Angelsjunky]

As for the OP, there are a lot of factors involved. It isn't so simply as "We have the best player, why aren't we winning?" Some very poor acquisitions were made in the 2011-13 range that saw the Angels owing $450M to three players who were essentially replacement level. They were struck by a rather absurd number of pitching injuries. They had a GM who didn't know how (or care) to build and nurture a farm system. Eppler inherited a mess, and while he did improve the farm he lacked the ability to assess pitching talent in his "patch the ship" approach.

That said, there's a lot of room for optimism. The farm system has a ton of talent, even if much of it is years away. They have arguably the best 1-2 tandem in baseball in Trout and Rendon, both still in their prime, and a solid supporting cast. While Minasian didn't make any big splashes, he did create depth and filled all of the major holes with, at the least, better players than they had last year.

My guess is that the Angels are going to be on a relatively sharp improvement curve over the next few years. In 2021 they'll be competitive, if not dominant. 2022 will see the graduation of four very good prospects in Adell, Marsh, Detmers, and Rodriguez, and maybe one or two other prospects that will help. From that point on, the team will be mostly young and the farm will be feeding it with more prospects. 

 

[jsnpritchett]

10 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

While I agree that we're going to see signs of Rendon declining at some point within the next few years, note that 2019 was the first year that he hit more than 25 HR. In his four previously full seasons he hit between 20 and 25. In other words, 2019 looked like the aberration.

That said, I do think he'll hit 25+ going forward. I do remember reading that he changed his launch angle. Not sure, though. Hopefully he won't do a Pujols.

Right, when I mentioned his power, I wasn't solely talking about HR.  His doubles were down (on a pro-rated basis) and he had his lowest slg % in 4 years (and his lowest overall BA).  Again, not freaking out over him or anything just yet.  Just something to keep an eye on this year.

[Wisconsin27]

45 minutes ago, mmc said:

Agree with this but the thing is I'm not as confident as everyone else that you can feasibly do this while also trying to compete in the short term.  This seems to have been the MO since Eppler was hired, but we have neither had a top 15 farm nor finished above .500 during that span.  I'm at a point where I'd much prefer we blow it up and rebuild than do what we've been doing the past few offseasons which hasn't gotten us nowhere (of course I'd prefer going all in on the Trout era to both options)

 

59 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

We're all pissed we cant get Trout to the playoffs.

But I honestly think that making that the focus would hurt the team more than help it. I think we should focus on the next core, so that we dont try for another "pujols window"

Id rather build around adell and marsh (for example) with trout as the old vet, than to try for trout now... just because we arent a deep enough team now.

Thats just me

I couldn't agree with you more, MMC.   We have been beating the mantra shared by Ten (honestly, no offense, I understand the perspective) for 5 years.  Each of those years we have gotten really excited about potential free agent arms that would put us in the running, only to be asked to understand the reasoning why it can't or shouldn't be done.  And each of those years we went into the season convincing ourselves that it is really best that we didn't "overpay" for the player(s) that we were so excited about.  

Second is correct in that JD hurt us badly and we feel it to this day.  But at some point (perhaps long past), Arte needed to step up and not be outbid.  I don't buy for a moment that Arte is losing money on the Angels.  He's currently on pace to go down as the owner who wasted the career of one of, if not the best, players to ever play the game.  

I will be SO upset if by the time we are truly able to compete, we have a 34+ year old Trout who is a shade of what he was in prime.  That would be, for me, just tragic for such a perfect individual to represent the game as one of the all-time greatest. 

[DCAngelsFan]

1 hour ago, Wisconsin27 said:

 

I couldn't agree with you more, MMC.   We have been beating the mantra shared by Ten (honestly, no offense, I understand the perspective) for 5 years.  Each of those years we have gotten really excited about potential free agent arms that would put us in the running, only to be asked to understand the reasoning why it can't or shouldn't be done.  And each of those years we went into the season convincing ourselves that it is really best that we didn't "overpay" for the player(s) that we were so excited about.  

Second is correct in that JD hurt us badly and we feel it to this day.  But at some point (perhaps long past), Arte needed to step up and not be outbid.  I don't buy for a moment that Arte is losing money on the Angels.  He's currently on pace to go down as the owner who wasted the career of one of, if not the best, players to ever play the game.  

I will be SO upset if by the time we are truly able to compete, we have a 34+ year old Trout who is a shade of what he was in prime.  That would be, for me, just tragic for such a perfect individual to represent the game as one of the all-time greatest. 

Thing is, it's very difficult to build a top-tier starting rotation - our pressing need for years now - through free agency.  Most free-agent pitchers are used up, and even the "aces" that do reach FA (and there aren't that many) are generally near the end of the line and/or hopelessly expensive.  

I don't mind Arte being outbid on people like Cole (I mean, he didn't even want to sign here) - but I *do* mind that we've done so poorly scouting, drafting, signing, and developing talent - especially pitchers.  I'd have much rather he invested in the future, and not quick fixes and marketing ploys - dipstick moves like Hamilton, Wells, GMJ, and Pujols - and signing Baldoquin taking us out of the Vlad JR running.  And not participating in the international market at all until Ohtani (which still was a coup, despite the injuries.)

He was here while the McCourts were destroying the Dodgers.  New ownership came in and built a juggernaut, because they still had the organizational knowledge to re-build, all while the Angels, well, tread water.  I shudder to think what this org would be like if someone drafted Trout before we could.  

Arte *still* hasn't taken that lesson to heart.  He needs to invest in the future of this team, and not just the team on the field.  I fear as long as business types run the Angels instead of baseball types, we'll always be a business first, a baseball team second.  

 

[Angels 1961]

I think this team will surprise fans this year. Full year with Walsh at 1B, return of Ohtani, finally a closer. Angel INF defense will help all the starters. Upton finished strong last year. Trout and Rendon 2 super stars. If Stassi healthy with Suzuki behind the plate will add punch to lineup. Player who could be huge is Mike Mayers, if he pitches like he did in 2020. Angels will be playing meaningful games in September if they can stay healthy. Playoffs not out of reach.

[Angels 1961]

I think this team will surprise fans this year. Full year with Walsh at 1B, return of Ohtani, finally a closer. Angel INF defense will help all the starters. Upton finished strong last year. Trout and Rendon 2 super stars. If Stassi healthy with Suzuki behind the plate will add punch to lineup. Player who could be huge is Mike Mayers, if he pitches like he did in 2020. Angels will be playing meaningful games in September if they can stay healthy. Playoffs not out of reach.

[Lou]

2021

[Bronson]

3 hours ago, jsnpritchett said:

Right, when I mentioned his power, I wasn't solely talking about HR.  His doubles were down (on a pro-rated basis) and he had his lowest slg % in 4 years (and his lowest overall BA).  Again, not freaking out over him or anything just yet.  Just something to keep an eye on this year.

You also have to remember he got of to an extremely slow start in a short season. 

[jsnpritchett]

13 minutes ago, Bronson said:

You also have to remember he got of to an extremely slow start in a short season. 

...then he heated up, before coming back down to earth a little in September. As I said, I realize it was a weird year and I'm not reading too much into it. 

[stormngt]

4 hours ago, Stradling said:

You don’t have to buy it but it’s absolutely true. The best player in baseball comparatively speaking means Jack shit.  Especially when teams in baseball are built so different than any other sport.  

You guys are flat out missing the point 

The vest player in baseball doesn't mean squat on a year to year analysis.   It doesnt mean squat if you are a small market team.

However, if you have the best player in baseball for a decade and you are a big market team, then its inexcusable not to put enough quality players around him to the make playoffs. 

Fact is the management has had major F-ups. It's not bad luck.  It is mismanagement. 

We should do a thread on the biggest F-ups in franchise history management.  

1. Failure to rebuild in 2009.

2. Pujols signing

3. Wells trade

4. Hamilton signing

5. Hamilton DFA

6. DIPSHITO 

7. Ignoring international signing for an extended period of time.

8. Poor drafts

Those are eight of some of the biggest F-ups in our history over the last 11 years.

That is dereliction on management.

A big market team would get the players needed to compete.  We are not!

[Lou]

I remember when we weren't a big market team. 

[Stradling]

14 minutes ago, stormngt said:

You guys are flat out missing the point 

The vest player in baseball doesn't mean squat on a year to year analysis.   It doesnt mean squat if you are a small market team.

However, if you have the best player in baseball for a decade and you are a big market team, then its inexcusable not to put enough quality players around him to the make playoffs. 

Fact is the management has had major F-ups. It's not bad luck.  It is mismanagement. 

We should do a thread on the biggest F-ups in franchise history management.  

1. Failure to rebuild in 2009.

2. Pujols signing

3. Wells trade

4. Hamilton signing

5. Hamilton DFA

6. DIPSHITO 

7. Ignoring international signing for an extended period of time.

8. Poor drafts

Those are eight of some of the biggest F-ups in our history over the last 11 years.

That is dereliction on management.

A big market team would get the players needed to compete.  We are not!

Ok.  The first 7 of those happened 5 plus years ago and are still hurting us today, big market or not.  If you have no farm and you signed Albert and Hamilton and then Trout to a life time contract, then yea, try to build a team through nothing but free agency.  You are asking the impossible.  The problems of this team are rooted in 5 plus years ago.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, Jason said:

This makes sense but Adell and Marsh may be complete duds. Then what?

Yeah, I know. Im just using them because I only know them and bakdoquin in the minors.

But lets say its not them. Then make moves and get a better next core. Obviously thats easier said than done. But I just dont see the current roster as doing it... so id rather focus on a different group

[Jay]

There's definitely a lack of commitment on the part of Angels ownership.

Big market, small market makes no difference. If you want to win you need to do certain things.

Dodgers seem to be willing to do those things.

Angels maybe can't match what the Dodgers do and that's fine that's just where they are.

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, Wisconsin27 said:

We have been beating the mantra shared by Ten (honestly, no offense, I understand the perspective) for 5 years.  Each of those years we have gotten really excited about potential free agent arms that would put us in the running, only to be asked to understand the reasoning why it can't or shouldn't be done.  And each of those years we went into the season convincing ourselves that it is really best that we didn't "overpay" for the player(s) that we were so excited about.  

Ill piggyback this with what @Jason said above.

I was and still am all for signing Cole. And Corbin. Etc. Meaning I hope we finally do stop being p*ssies and grab an actual star pitcher.

But we havent... and I dont see one being available anytime soon. This is why i say, as much as it sucks, punt the trout prime and try and make the next era really solid.

Ill gladly take trout getting a ring when hes an old man who sucks, versus getting him into 2 playoff series we get bounced in, and the next several years looking like the last several.

Again, if a bonafide star is there, get him if you can. But if its not.... hope that detmers and marsh etc are going to be good, and try to fill the next roster with talent.

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, DCAngelsFan said:

He was here while the McCourts were destroying the Dodgers.  

 

We definitely blew that oppurtunity

[Inside Pitch]

45 minutes ago, Lou said:

I remember when we weren't a big market team. 

....I remember when Arte was mocked for suggesting they should be.

[stormngt]

41 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok.  The first 7 of those happened 5 plus years ago and are still hurting us today, big market or not.  If you have no farm and you signed Albert and Hamilton and then Trout to a life time contract, then yea, try to build a team through nothing but free agency.  You are asking the impossible.  The problems of this team are rooted in 5 plus years ago.  

Thanks for agreeing with me

A big market team with the best player in baseball should have more than one playoff appearance in a decade!  

As I said, year to year the best player in the game makes no difference.  But over a period of a decade its inexcusably.   

[T.G.]

24 minutes ago, Jay said:

There's definitely a lack of commitment on the part of Angels ownership.

I disagree.  They've made some bad decisions.

[stormngt]

46 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok.  The first 7 of those happened 5 plus years ago and are still hurting us today, big market or not.  If you have no farm and you signed Albert and Hamilton and then Trout to a life time contract, then yea, try to build a team through nothing but free agency.  You are asking the impossible.  The problems of this team are rooted in 5 plus years ago.  

One more point.  I only listed what I considered among the biggest F-ups in franchise history.

Other poor decision but not on the same scale would be:

Drafting Ward and Thauss in first round.

Signing Cozart

Not extending Petit

Trading Clevenger

Sugbibg Baloquin and Not signing Guerrera Jr.

I would argue not signing another high pressure bull pen piece this year.  I can understand not getting better starter but some good closer are signing for fairly cheap.

[Jason]

11 minutes ago, T.G. said:

I disagree.  They've made some bad decisions.

Yep, commitment and competence are not the same thing 

[stormngt]

36 minutes ago, Jay said:

There's definitely a lack of commitment on the part of Angels ownership.

Big market, small market makes no difference. If you want to win you need to do certain things.

Dodgers seem to be willing to do those things.

Angels maybe can't match what the Dodgers do and that's fine that's just where they are.

 

You cant have among the highest payrolls in baseball and say there is no committment. 

The problem is stupid moves not lack of commitment 

[Stradling]

9 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Thanks for agreeing with me

A big market team with the best player in baseball should have more than one playoff appearance in a decade!  

As I said, year to year the best player in the game makes no difference.  But over a period of a decade its inexcusably.   

Yea except you are missing the point entirely.  The reason we haven’t been better the last five years have to do with things that happened before those five years.  Nine years ago we hired a GM that couldn’t draft, gave out shitty contracts and traded away the farm.  Now we are still stuck with one contract, from that guy, and building a farm when we had no one of significant value to trade except the one guy you can’t trade. 

[stormngt]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Yea except you are missing the point entirely.  The reason we haven’t been better the last five years have to do with things that happened before those five years.  Nine years ago we hired a GM that couldn’t draft, gave out shitty contracts and traded away the farm.  Now we are still stuck with one contract, from that guy, and building a farm when we had no one of significant value to trade except the one guy you can’t trade. 

So once again. The team should have been better the last decade. Havent you figured out that my argument is based on a decade of years.  Not fives years not last year.  The last decade.

I would think the fact I highlighted the term decade would have caught you attention!

If our struggles were only five years I wouldn't be making this argument