The Angels 2021 Bullpen

[Cosmo_Kramer]

Surprised by the Bradley non tender. Could be a great pickup

[beatlesrule]

18 minutes ago, Cosmo_Kramer said:

Surprised by the Bradley non tender. Could be a great pickup

Why does Cosmo Kramer have a picture of George Costanza as their avatar? I know what you're thinking:

[Cosmo_Kramer]

54 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

Why does Cosmo Kramer have a picture of George Costanza as their avatar? I know what you're thinking:

[Angel Oracle]

On 12/3/2020 at 8:29 PM, Chuckster70 said:

Middleton threw strikes. 

A good majority of them were crushed for home runs. 

Yep, strikes with movement is what is needed.   Not straight as an arrow heat

[Angel Oracle]

7 hours ago, Dochalo said:

no offense but that's not really how businesses usually work.  

Plus Eppler and Ausmus will be off payroll anyway after 2021.

[mmc]

Looks a hell of a lot better now that we exchanged Noe with an All-Star caliber closer.

[Warfarin]

3 hours ago, mmc said:

Looks a hell of a lot better now that we exchanged Noe with an All-Star caliber closer.

Yep.  With a core of Iglesias, Mayers, Pena, and Buttrey, I have to imagine (hope?) at least 3 of those are really solid.  I like Sandoval as a multi-inning weapon out of the pen too.  So if those 5 become our core, we have a really good base.

Then again, entering last season, I figured we were set with Robles as closer, and we saw how that turned out.  Relievers are highly volatile, so we just have to bring in a lot of arms with potential and hope enough of them pan out.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

I actually, believe the opposite! I think Arte saw the 22 early blown saves and lost his mind! Then at the end if we had won half of those games we were  in a Playoff spot!

I see him bringing in a Closer which we got today. And a lefty setup guy who has had experience closing games either Hand or one of the Lefties from the Braves (Dayton or Minter), Shreve or Watson etc. 

Bradley, Clippard, Brebbria, Wisler, etc. Might even see a Yates or Peacock deal of the injured bullpen arms that are available. 

[Pancake Bear]

2 hours ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

I actually, believe the opposite! I think Arte saw the 22 early blown saves and lost his mind! Then at the end if we had won half of those games we were  in a Playoff spot!

I see him bringing in a Closer which we got today. And a lefty setup guy who has had experience closing games either Hand or one of the Lefties from the Braves (Dayton or Minter), Shreve or Watson etc. 

Bradley, Clippard, Brebbria, Wisler, etc. Might even see a Yates or Peacock deal of the injured bullpen arms that are available. 

Yeah - he mentioned the pen issues specifically at Minasian's press conference. So I'm not surprised to see Minasian addressing it noticeably. Moreno is old school, I suspect in terms of the bullpen. I doubt he liked Eppler's approach there. Still, he got the facts wrong on the blown saves since we didn't actually lose all of them but came back and won some. So the argument that if we'd only not blown X amount of our blown saves is misleading because they weren't all lost. 

[Warfarin]

Well, we can update this to now include Jose Rivera.  So the 2021 pen, for now, will consist of Iglesias, Mayers, Pena, Buttrey, and Rivera, amongst others, so that's 5 dedicated spots.  Whether Rivera sticks or not remains to be seen, but he's got a 70 grade FB, which should hopefully be enough to help him be competitive this year as he learns on the job.

[rafibomb]

I posted this in the rule 5 thread but figured it belonged here as well

Quote

I am not sure if this is a coincidence but with Rivera, that is now 5 relievers that are capable of pitching 2 innings out of the pen: Iglesias, Pena, Mayers, Buttrey and now Rivera. Pena and Rivera are the only ones capable of going more than 2 innings.

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by rafibomb

[floplag]

If you cant get the rotation you want, shorten the games. 
We all know SP are a terrible investment, and we also know were in dire need of some.   But the isssue here for me is availability and budget.
We would all like Bauer but if thats not an option, and i dont think it is unless Arte busts the budget for a couple years, whats left in the SP pool?  No aces, no true front liners, but a lot of 2s or 3s that are likely to get overpayed as the best available. 
Maybe the smart move is to put the money elsewhere.  bullpen, offense... plenty of that available it seems. 
Bottom line what we want, may not be there, and we dont have a ton of trade chips to make too many more happen so... 
In general i like the idea, i think Hubs has a viable idea. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

2 hours ago, floplag said:

If you cant get the rotation you want, shorten the games. 
We all know SP are a terrible investment, and we also know were in dire need of some.   But the isssue here for me is availability and budget.
We would all like Bauer but if thats not an option, and i dont think it is unless Arte busts the budget for a couple years, whats left in the SP pool?  No aces, no true front liners, but a lot of 2s or 3s that are likely to get overpayed as the best available. 
Maybe the smart move is to put the money elsewhere.  bullpen, offense... plenty of that available it seems. 
Bottom line what we want, may not be there, and we dont have a ton of trade chips to make too many more happen so... 
In general i like the idea, i think Hubs has a viable idea. 

Theoretically, That would be great, if you went by inning count instead of pitch count. We saw quite a few times where the Starter threw 50-60 pitches and was out in the 3rd or 4th inning leading or having held the opponents to 2 or fewer runs. 

I still believe in the 100-110 pitch count and 6-7inning starter. Openers and 2/3 inning guys are for teams that suck. If you have a starter who is throwing 100+ in 2 or 3 innings regardless he needs to be gonzo!

That crushes a bullpen! Unless, you have the thought process of "Turn 'em and Burn 'em" which at the asset and competitive level is a horrible thought process. To keep arms healthy across a 162 game season.

The process of having starters gut out or work through 5-6 innings is gone and that's too bad. It shortens games and forces guys to gain experience in getting out of their own jams/situations. If it's a mechanics issue then yeah, that could lead to an injury! If it is just a bad game you keep it rolling. 

Apologies, kind of showing my age. Appier, Hill, Zahn, Forsch etc. 

 

[floplag]

1 hour ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Theoretically, That would be great, if you went by inning count instead of pitch count. We saw quite a few times where the Starter threw 50-60 pitches and was out in the 3rd or 4th inning leading or having held the opponents to 2 or fewer runs. 

I still believe in the 100-110 pitch count and 6-7inning starter. Openers and 2/3 inning guys are for teams that suck. If you have a starter who is throwing 100+ in 2 or 3 innings regardless he needs to be gonzo!

That crushes a bullpen! Unless, you have the thought process of "Turn 'em and Burn 'em" which at the asset and competitive level is a horrible thought process. To keep arms healthy across a 162 game season.

The process of having starters gut out or work through 5-6 innings is gone and that's too bad. It shortens games and forces guys to gain experience in getting out of their own jams/situations. If it's a mechanics issue then yeah, that could lead to an injury! If it is just a bad game you keep it rolling. 

Apologies, kind of showing my age. Appier, Hill, Zahn, Forsch etc. 

 

It isnt about showing age, i have many things in the so-called modern game that turn my stomach in the ages of Moneyball and analytics overload. 
The simple reality of this issue is that the numbers are trending down.  Instead of the 6th or 7th the goal seems to be getting thru the 5th.  
I agree with you, but the game doesnt, not anymore... starters simply arent doing what some of us old school types think they should, yet we are paying them as though they were.   Few today could meet that ace role 20 years ago for example it seems due to that alone.
Its a new age my friend... and its part of the reason i dont put as much value on starters that some do, they arent giving me 6 or 7 per outing so why are teams giving them the same paycheck as though they were? 
bullpens are significantly more important than past years... turn em and burn is the norm... the SLC express will be a thing for years to come. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

4 minutes ago, floplag said:

It isnt about showing age, i have many things in the so-called modern game that turn my stomach in the ages of Moneyball and analytics overload. 
The simple reality of this issue is that the numbers are trending down.  Instead of the 6th or 7th the goal seems to be getting thru the 5th.  
I agree with you, but the game doesnt, not anymore... starters simply arent doing what some of us old school types think they should, yet we are paying them as though they were.   Few today could meet that ace role 20 years ago for example it seems due to that alone.
Its a new age my friend... and its part of the reason i dont put as much value on starters that some do, they arent giving me 6 or 7 per outing so why are teams giving them the same paycheck as though they were? 
bullpens are significantly more important than past years... turn em and burn is the norm... the SLC express will be a thing for years to come. 

I wasn't saying that you were showing your age.... That I was! There was zero stated about you Flop my apologies. If you interpreted it that way~

** edit** I re-read my post. "YOU" meaning a FO of an organization.... NOT "YOU" individually.

[floplag]

1 hour ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

I wasn't saying that you were showing your age.... That I was! There was zero stated about you Flop my apologies. If you interpreted it that way~

** edit** I re-read my post. "YOU" meaning a FO of an organization.... NOT "YOU" individually.

Oh no not at all i was commiserating   

[stormngt]

6 hours ago, floplag said:

If you cant get the rotation you want, shorten the games. 
We all know SP are a terrible investment, and we also know were in dire need of some.   But the isssue here for me is availability and budget.
We would all like Bauer but if thats not an option, and i dont think it is unless Arte busts the budget for a couple years, whats left in the SP pool?  No aces, no true front liners, but a lot of 2s or 3s that are likely to get overpayed as the best available. 
Maybe the smart move is to put the money elsewhere.  bullpen, offense... plenty of that available it seems. 
Bottom line what we want, may not be there, and we dont have a ton of trade chips to make too many more happen so... 
In general i like the idea, i think Hubs has a viable idea. 

We can win with lockdown bullpen and mediocre rotation

[Warfarin]

8 minutes ago, stormngt said:

We can win with lockdown bullpen and mediocre rotation

The 2002 Angels approve of this message

[floplag]

2 hours ago, stormngt said:

We can win with lockdown bullpen and mediocre rotation

I agree completely, and since its our likely best and perhaps only realistic affordable option within budget... it makes sense. 

[rafibomb]

I still think there is a solid middle-of-the-rotation pitcher in Sandoval and I'm not quite ready to stick him in the pen just yet.

[happybat4]

Brandon Morrow to the dodgers on a minor league deal. He was good last year, I'm surprised he only got a minor league deal.

[totdprods]

4 hours ago, rafibomb said:

I still think there is a solid middle-of-the-rotation pitcher in Sandoval and I'm not quite ready to stick him in the pen just yet.

I agree, but I think he showed a lot of promise last year in relief and hopefully, there isn’t room in the rotation for him this season. Especially with Barria out of options

Might be good for Sandoval to get a full season in the pen this year and harness some potential and then compete next year if Bundy or Heaney depart.

[tdawg87]

We don't have like...any lefties in the pen. The Angels have made this work before, but it would be nice to have a solid LHP for middle relief. 

If there's no room for Sandoval in the rotation then he should be in the bullpen. He's too good to just be a swingman.

[Warfarin]

12 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

We don't have like...any lefties in the pen. The Angels have made this work before, but it would be nice to have a solid LHP for middle relief. 

If there's no room for Sandoval in the rotation then he should be in the bullpen. He's too good to just be a swingman.

I'm all for Sandoval's potential in the pen, but I think there is possibly some upside in having him in AAA, stretched out as a SP, too.  Given our history of SP depth issues, and given that injuries are inevitable, it'd be nice to have, say, Sandoval as "next man up," as opposed to Suarez.  

Realistically, teams need to be 8-9 SP deep in the big leagues these days, given injuries and whatnot, and that's where having guys with options is key.  If we acquired Bauer and that's it, then we have a solid rotation of Bauer, Bundy, Heaney, Canning, Barria, Ohtani*, but if, say, two guys get hurt, and Sandoval is just pithing in relief, then who comes into the rotation?  Suarez and..?

I think historically, over the last few years, that's where we've gotten burned - once the inevitable injuries occur, we don't really have replacement-level type SPs to step in, but rather, some rather awful options.  I'm hoping Minasian can stockpile some depth of serviceable SP types, so that when the inevitable injuries hit, we have guys we can option back and forth who can, at least, provide competitive starts and not require us to go into the bullpen by the 3rd inning.

[tdawg87]

Depth guys are either young prospects on the cusp of making the big leagues, or guys who aren't quite good enough to make the rotation. It would be nice if Detmers was ready.

I'm sure Minasian will bring a couple arms in as flyers, but that's about it. Depth is important, but improving the actual rotation is the main goal.