Which 3 pitchers would you add to the Angels this offseason that could realistically all be had?

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, mmc said:

Even if you think the 4 you listed + one acquisition is a decent enough rotation, what happens if someone gets hurt?  Or 2 guys?  We need to be several starters deep to be able to truly compete.

Outside of Canning none of those guys have options.  Therefore bringing in three pitchers to replace them would force us to trade them.  Not provide depth.

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, gotbeer said:

but what you are suggesting is screw development.  Get 3 starters, spend probably the entire FA budget doing so, which also means no improvement of the arson squad of a bullpen, and move canning and Barria to the minors for depth.  Depth is having a deep minor league squad to call up.  Obviously we don't have that, and it would be difficult to trade for that kind of talent.  My thoughts are, the depth we are going to have are going to be spring training invites on flyers, similar to what we've done in the past, because of the lack of minor league prospects.  But those types of signings don't cost us that much.  And if it gets bad, then we'll have to do trades if we are competitive.  

Barria has no options therefore he would have to be released or moved to bullpen.

[Warfarin]

2 hours ago, gotbeer said:

IMO, we don't need 3 starters.  Just need one.

I agree with this only if the "one" starter is Bauer or an ace like him.

In truth, what I'd try to do is sign Bauer (5/125?) and then a "flyer" type SP who can be a reliever if the starting thing doesn't work out - like Minor, Richards, etc.

The rationale is this - if we signed Bauer, we'd have Bauer, Bundy, Heaney, Canning, Barria.  We need depth beyond this, but we can take depth in the form of someone like Minor or Richards who can be pivoted to relief.   Or if Barria struggles at the outset, then one of Minor or Richards can start.  Beyond them, we have Suarez and Sandoval, who both have options and can start at AAA, then get called up when the inevitable injuries occur.

Thus, the depth would be Bauer, Bundy, Heaney, Canning, Barria, Richards/Minor, Suarez, Sandoval, Ohtani* (he will start, but he won't pitch a ton IMO due to an innings limit).

I do not think we need 3 SPs or anything like that.  What we need, rather, is for our young SPs to grow and show progress.  Hopefully Minasian and our coaching staff can help guide that growth, as that will go a long way to solving our pitching problems.

[Docwaukee]

getting three starters will never happen when you already have Bundy, Heaney, Barria and Canning plus Sandoval who I think they will still want to keep as a starter.  

Regardless of whether we don't want to rely on Ohtani, they are still going to make room for him to pitch once a week.  

I like depth but you have to be realistic.  Realistic to me is one very good or solid guy and another that is likely gonna be more of a head scratcher on a 1yr deal that would agree to pitch out of the pen if by some chance people stay healthy and there's no room.  Which is why I think we're kicking tires on a guy like Happ.  If he makes his 7 or 8 mil for himself in his age 38 season, he's likely not gonna give a shit if he ends up in the pen.  

Bauer is gonna cost too much and we have too many other needs considering the current financial landscape.  

Marquez is my first choice far and away but I agree they probably won't trade him especially if they can off load Arrenado (still think Seattle is gonna take him and give up almost nothing to get him).  It would also have to pull from a pool of players I'm not comfortable with in that I really don't want to trade Detmers, Kochanowicz or Rodriguez.  And it would definitely take one of them plus Adell or Marsh and two others that would sting.  Teams are gonna be all over that guy if he becomes available.  Dude is entering his age 26 season and controlled for 4 more years at a very reasonable amount.  Get him out of Colorado and he's gonna win a cy young.  

If the Rox truly want to get rid of some payroll and decrease what it would take to get Marquez, I would also take on Gray and Desmond.  

I could actually see the Rockies liking Sandoval and one of Adell or Marsh.  Plus they'll definitely want Rodriguez and probably one more of our top OFers like Adams.  Maybe it wouldn't cost quite that much but I think it would at least be Adell, Rodriguez and Sandoval plus maybe another throw in.  

The Angels would definitely have rotation issues to address for 2022 but with Desmond, Gray, Pujols, Bundy and Heaney becoming free agents they'd have some room to work and potentially bring back 2 of Gray, Bundy or Heaney.  

I really don't like Odorizzi.  He's likely gonna want a multi year deal which I wouldn't be comfortable with.  

I would also definitely save some money for some bargain relievers who will be available at the end of the off season.  Earmark about 10m for two guys.  

[totdprods]

The three I think would add, realistically, would be Darvish, Matt Moore, and Trevor May.

[Stradling]

With the option issues that Storm brings up they will have to include Barria or Heaney in a trade for what they consider an upgrade to the rotation.  So if they could move say Barria in a package for Musgrove and then sign Bauer, I think the third pitcher would be a guy like Hendricks or Hand.  We aren’t getting three starters without giving up two. 

[Angels 1961]

18 hours ago, gotbeer said:

IMO, we don't need 3 starters.  Just need one.

1. Bundy, 3.2 ERA, 1.036 WHIP.  Won't be replicated, but a mid/high 3, 1.15 WHIP is very possible.
2. Canning, 3.99 ERA, 1.3667 WHIP.  Whip is definitely high.  He'll probably bring it down to the 1.2 range.  His minor league numbers show that he should even get it into the low 1.2 range, maybe high 1.1 range.  ERA wise, if he's in the high 3's, it should be enough with the offense we can put behind him.
3. Heaney  4.46 ERA, 1.230 WHIP.  Potential to drop it into the low 4's.  His Whip has been very consistent in the 1.2's, which is fine for a 3/4 pitcher.
4. Barria.  3.62 ERA, 1.113 WHIP.  Will probably move up higher on depth chart, but he is still pretty young.  It definitely looks like his 21 YO campaign wasn't a fluke, and that his 22 YO campaign might be the outlier.  His AAA numbers are a worry.  But for a 4 starter, he should be fine.  

Wildcard is obviously Ohtani, but I'm not expecting much from him at all this season.  So he'd just be a bonus, if anything.  I'm still on the McKenzie/Lindor bandwagon.  McKenzie can slot in the 4/5 slot.  And hopefully rise to the 2 slot by end of season.  In 3/4 years, I can see him as the staff ace.  But he's still very young, so no need to rush him to the top slot.  Just get him experience, and let him shine.  I wouldn't mind Walker also, as he would slot into the #2/3 slot easily.  But Barria and Canning are young, and if you add McKenzie you would have to slot one in relief or down to the minors.  

What we do need is 3 relievers though.  Mayers Bedrosian, and Ramirez all put up good numbers last season.  The rest were not good at all.  

Bedrosian was released and is now FA

[Angels 1961]

I get a young pitcher you can control for years, Matt Manning would be fit here. Go out get a vet starter in Happ, go get bullpen help May, Hand or Hendriks. Bullpen needs almost a total make over. 

[totdprods]

33 minutes ago, Stradling said:

With the option issues that Storm brings up they will have to include Barria or Heaney in a trade for what they consider an upgrade to the rotation.  So if they could move say Barria in a package for Musgrove and then sign Bauer, I think the third pitcher would be a guy like Hendricks or Hand.  We aren’t getting three starters without giving up two. 

Barria would have a good bit of value to teams like the Cubs, Cincinnati, Tampa, Colorado, and Pittsburgh given his low cost, control, and relatively safe #5 floor.

I know that’s handy for the Angels too, but there’s a chance they’d rather take someone with more upside, even with more cost/less control, in that slot, or rely on similar guys who have options (Detmers, Sandoval, Suarez, etc.) so I do think there’s a good chance Barria is discussed in deals regarding pitching. We don’t know how tight some teams might be on payroll due to the virus, and that could make someone like Barria pretty valuable to some teams.

Harder to see with Heaney since he’ll be a FA. I think teams are going to be real stingy as to what they give up for rentals this year, since it may be a shortened season again. That could work in our favor too.

[wopphil]

Bauer. Then, if trying to be realistic with respect to cost, I’d be thrilled with any two of Kluber (if healthy), Richards, Quintana, or Happ.

There is a ton of pitching available. There is zero reason why we shouldn’t sign three starters. In the unlikely event of good health, you can put someone in the pen. 

[Stradling]

13 minutes ago, wopphil said:

Bauer. Then, if trying to be realistic with respect to cost, I’d be thrilled with any two of Kluber (if healthy), Richards, Quintana, or Happ.

There is a ton of pitching available. There is zero reason why we shouldn’t sign three starters. In the unlikely event of good health, you can put someone in the pen. 

So if we sign three starters what do you do with all of them?  So we will use your names, Bauer, Kluber and Richards.  Along with Bundy, Heaney, Canning, Barria, Ohtani, that is 8 starters.  I know we can’t depend on Ohtani, but if he does come back that is a plus arm.  So do we just release Barria, move him to the pen?  What about Heaney?  Canning, we can send down, but he was pretty solid last year.  Of the three guys you recommend, only Richards is a realistic option for the pen.  I just think it is unrealistic we will sign three starters.  Like I said, I could totally see us trading one or two starters if the goal is to acquire 3 starters.  

[wopphil]

13 minutes ago, Stradling said:

So if we sign three starters what do you do with all of them?  So we will use your names, Bauer, Kluber and Richards.  Along with Bundy, Heaney, Canning, Barria, Ohtani, that is 8 starters.  I know we can’t depend on Ohtani, but if he does come back that is a plus arm.  So do we just release Barria, move him to the pen?  What about Heaney?  Canning, we can send down, but he was pretty solid last year.  Of the three guys you recommend, only Richards is a realistic option for the pen.  I just think it is unrealistic we will sign three starters.  Like I said, I could totally see us trading one or two starters if the goal is to acquire 3 starters.  

I expect nothing from Ohtani or Barria. If Ohtani is healthy, that’s just gravy. I also don’t expect Canning or Heaney or Richards to stay healthy the entire year. So my rotation would look something like this:

Bauer, Bundy, Heaney, Kluber, Richards, Canning. 

If Ohtani is healthy (and everyone else is healthy) you move Richards to the pen.

But the odds of all of these guys being healthy at the same time are almost zero. I agree with you it would be a glut of pitching if everyone was healthy, but that just wouldn’t happen. 
 

[wopphil]

And, I will add, if all these guys were healthy and effective, this would be a World Series caliber team. That’s a trade off I’d happily take even if it meant Richards pitches from the pen or Ohtani barely pitches. 

[Stradling]

@wopphil fair enough.  I agree that more depth is better, as long as you have a place to put these guys.  Even if we should expect injuries, when there aren’t injuries, where do you put Barria or Heaney, when they don’t have options.   I have been pretty critical of Barria but he changed my outlook of him this past year.  It could just be the fact that both him and Bundy changed the way they pitched and both had success.  He had a 3.6 ERA a 3-1 strike out to walk ratio and allowed by far the least amount of base runners.  Is he a top of the rotation guy?  No, but a solid 3/4, I think he can be that and there is a ton of value in that at close to league minimum.  Also he appears to be the only guy we have had that stays healthy, which once again has a ton of value.  

[wopphil]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

@wopphil fair enough.  I agree that more depth is better, as long as you have a place to put these guys.  Even if we should expect injuries, when there aren’t injuries, where do you put Barria or Heaney, when they don’t have options.   I have been pretty critical of Barria but he changed my outlook of him this past year.  It could just be the fact that both him and Bundy changed the way they pitched and both had success.  He had a 3.6 ERA a 3-1 strike out to walk ratio and allowed by far the least amount of base runners.  Is he a top of the rotation guy?  No, but a solid 3/4, I think he can be that and there is a ton of value in that at close to league minimum.  Also he appears to be the only guy we have had that stays healthy, which once again has a ton of value.  

I hope you are correct about Barria. I honestly don’t know enough about the changes he made to know whether they are sustainable. But if better baseball minds believe those changes are sustainable and that Barria can pitch in the back of a rotation, then I could be comfortable adding only two starters.

However, keep in mind that with the exception of Bauer, nearly every available arm comes with injury questions (including Kluber, Richards and Quintana). So part of my thought process is that even if you sign two of Richards, Kluber and Quintana, you’d probably be lucky to get 200 innings combined. 

[Docwaukee]

7 hours ago, wopphil said:

I expect nothing from Ohtani or Barria. If Ohtani is healthy, that’s just gravy. I also don’t expect Canning or Heaney or Richards to stay healthy the entire year. So my rotation would look something like this:

Bauer, Bundy, Heaney, Kluber, Richards, Canning. 

If Ohtani is healthy (and everyone else is healthy) you move Richards to the pen.

But the odds of all of these guys being healthy at the same time are almost zero. I agree with you it would be a glut of pitching if everyone was healthy, but that just wouldn’t happen. 
 

maybe that's ideal but completely unrealistic.  Bauer and Kluber aren't going to come here if there's a six man rotation.  There's no way the Angels aren't going to give Ohatni a start once a week if he's healthy.   If you aren't going to let Barria start, then he should get traded.  

Plus you've spent too much money on those three and we still need a MIF and halfway decent OFer.   

[Pancake Bear]

31 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

maybe that's ideal but completely unrealistic.  Bauer and Kluber aren't going to come here if there's a six man rotation.  There's no way the Angels aren't going to give Ohatni a start once a week if he's healthy.   If you aren't going to let Barria start, then he should get traded.  

Plus you've spent too much money on those three and we still need a MIF and halfway decent OFer.   

Bauer wanted to pitch every fourth day last year. I doubt a six man rotation would scare him off.

https://www.redlegnation.com/2020/07/05/will-the-cincinnati-reds-let-trevor-bauer-pitch-every-4-days/

[Pancake Bear]

8 hours ago, wopphil said:

Bauer. Then, if trying to be realistic with respect to cost, I’d be thrilled with any two of Kluber (if healthy), Richards, Quintana, or Happ.

There is a ton of pitching available. There is zero reason why we shouldn’t sign three starters. In the unlikely event of good health, you can put someone in the pen. 

Hard no to Kluber. That has disaster written all over it. Shoulder injuries are career-enders. 

[Angel Oracle]

One starter and two key relievers 

Walker, Minor, or Odorizzi

Hand for one of the key relievers, other than Street no one has stepped up for more than a year since the 2000s.   Pena, Andriese to Mayers and second key acquisition, and finally to Hand, sounds pretty good to me.   Fill out with Buttrey and two clean peanuts.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[Cosmo_Kramer]

Bauer/Snell/reliever is doable, and it actually puts them in contention.

I'm not sure I see a path without a group of this caliber

[Pancake Bear]

2 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

One starter and two key relievers 

Walker, Minor, or Odorizzi

Hand for one of the key relievers, other than Street no one has stepped up for more than a year since the 2000s.   Pena, Andriese to Mayers and second key acquisition, and finally to Hand, sounds pretty good to me.   Fill out with Buttrey and two clean peanuts.

Low innings in 2020, long relief will be crucial. Andriese will likely be retained if only for that reason. Barria and Pena could also fill that role. 

[Angels_Make_Me_Drink]

Bauer or Snell, Richards, Odorizzi 

[Angelsjunky]

Shane Bieber, Walker Buehler, and Luis Castillo.

[totdprods]

On 11/26/2020 at 7:20 PM, Cosmo_Kramer said:

Bauer/Snell/reliever is doable, and it actually puts them in contention.

I'm not sure I see a path without a group of this caliber

This is bonkers but the more I’ve thought about it, the more I see it being a path with some reality. 

If the Angels signed Bauer, and it was a long-term deal, they could backload/defer a few bucks to make ‘21 payroll stick within the range they’ve been. 

If you’re adding Bauer and Snell, you could give up Canning. Pair him up with Adell or Marsh, and you have a really strong start to a package for Snell. They wouldn’t have much money left, but if they stuck to cheap one-year deals to fill out the pen and offense, Arte might be okay going a little over. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by totdprods

[wopphil]

6 hours ago, totdprods said:

This is bonkers but the more I’ve thought about it, the more I see it being a path with some reality. 

If the Angels signed Bauer, and it was a long-term deal, they could backload/defer a few bucks to make ‘21 payroll stick within the range they’ve been. 

If you’re adding Bauer and Snell, you could give up Canning. Pair him up with Adell or Marsh, and you have a really strong start to a package for Snell. They wouldn’t have much money left, but if they stuck to cheap one-year deals to fill out the pen and offense, Arte might be okay going a little over. 

No way I’d give Canning and Adell for Snell. And it shouldn’t take anywhere near that much. One of them, but not both.